Log from 2016-07-02:
Jul 02 14:40:30 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 02 14:40:30 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 02 14:40:30 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
Jul 02 14:41:05 2016 Tcl interface unloaded
Jul 02 14:41:05 2016 Python interface unloaded
Jul 02 14:42:01 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 02 14:42:01 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 02 14:42:01 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
Jul 02 14:42:52 2016 * nelg-bot (~nelg-bot@unaffiliated/amaroknelg/bot/nelg-bot) has joined #armagetron
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Jul 02 17:35:44 2016 <Z-Man> Whiny child was placated by letting her buy(not eat) one of every kind of sweet at the sweets buffet.
Jul 02 17:36:43 2016 <Z-Man> I CAN SEE NO WAY OF THIS GOING WRONG
Jul 02 17:48:57 2016 <sinewav> hahaha
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Jul 02 18:36:25 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Heh, just wait until whiny child has become lazy teenager
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Jul 02 20:00:59 2016 <AmarokNelg> hey uh
Jul 02 20:01:00 2016 <AmarokNelg> devs
Jul 02 20:01:12 2016 <AmarokNelg> how come armagetron takes RAM but never seems to release it
Jul 02 20:12:19 2016 <AmarokNelg> Lucifer_arma?
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Jul 02 20:28:10 2016 <AmarokNelg> Z-Man?
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Log from 2016-07-03:
Jul 03 00:53:19 2016 * G5 (~g5@p2003006A6A7BA200F0D7C22FF506449A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #armagetron
Jul 03 02:30:05 2016 * zmanuel (~Z-Man@p5B34E9B1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #armagetron
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Jul 03 02:30:05 2016 * zmanuel is now known as Z-Man
Jul 03 03:32:12 2016 <Z-Man> AmarokNelg: are you using debug mode and the debug memmanager? That one indeed never frees anything, it recycles memory, though.
Jul 03 03:33:05 2016 <Lucifer_arma> AmarokNelg: Because Arma is a pirate, and it just simply doesn't give up what it's already taken.
Jul 03 03:33:37 2016 <Lucifer_arma> If you want it to give that precious RAM up, you need to Paypal USD200 to each developer who has ever contributed to Armagetron.
Jul 03 03:34:09 2016 <Lucifer_arma> You can also simplify things by just sending me the USD 3000 or so. I'll make sure the others get their fair share. Promise!
Jul 03 03:34:45 2016 <Z-Man> I can't vouch for the hack branches, but our core should be pretty much memory leak free. The debug memmanager and the occasional valgrind run say so. I'm personally quite anal about those things.
Jul 03 03:35:09 2016 <Lucifer_arma> hey, don't intrude on my get-rich-quick scheme here
Jul 03 03:35:20 2016 <Lucifer_arma> that's, like, really rude
Jul 03 03:36:34 2016 <Z-Man> 'Course, if you have a scenario where arma takes more and more memory, do tell. There can be cases where buffers grow larger over time, for example, if we forget to clean them up.
Jul 03 03:36:36 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I mean, we've been back and forth on this one, and you've totally put me in my place, so much so that I feel quite confident when I say that Chrome is a huge memory-sucking asshat
Jul 03 03:38:06 2016 <Lucifer_arma> but man, this is AmarokNelg, and I can easily bleed him/her for a few bucks before saying "Haha! Arma doesn't leak memory, you git!"
Jul 03 03:38:12 2016 <Lucifer_arma> and you're totally interfering with that!
Jul 03 03:38:45 2016 <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: typing on the phone where I can't see what others write while I type :/
Jul 03 03:39:12 2016 <Lucifer_arma> that's ok, I'm probably currently exhibiting multiple personalities
Jul 03 03:40:02 2016 <Lucifer_arma> in more serious tones, I'm actually not sure what AmarokNelg is even talking about. There's absolutely no memory that Armagetron uses that isn't released when Armagetron quits. So, what, are you trying to Skype with some Russian princess while you're playing arma?
Jul 03 03:40:14 2016 <Lucifer_arma> What are you doing while playing arma? Seriously!
Jul 03 03:41:26 2016 <Lucifer_arma> My complaint about Chrome stands, because it does eat memory. Really, I can play arma all day long and and be able to browse porn sites in a different window, but poor old Chrome struggles when the porn sites are in its windows
Jul 03 03:41:58 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Poor Chrome. Millions of dollars sunk into it, still leaks memory. They should've called it the Titanic.
Jul 03 03:42:53 2016 <Z-Man> Dammit, family woke up. Cya!
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Jul 03 13:10:36 2016 <sinewav> !commands
Jul 03 13:10:36 2016 <nelg-bot> sinewav: Commands: !help, !commands (!list), !about, !calc, !google, !weather, !dict, !translate (!traducir), !scramble, !typo, !find, !lastseen, !servers, !slap, !md5, !sha1, !base64, !debase64, !bf, !say, !me, !ladle, !8ball, !date, !readtimer, !timer, !time, !generate, !copycat
Jul 03 13:10:37 2016 <Long_Shoota> It is Commands:.
Jul 03 13:10:48 2016 <sinewav> !help scramble
Jul 03 13:10:49 2016 <nelg-bot> sinewav: !scramble <phrase> -- Scrambles a given word or phrase.
Jul 03 13:11:02 2016 <sinewav> !scramble one two three
Jul 03 13:11:02 2016 <nelg-bot> sinewav: noe
Jul 03 13:11:22 2016 <sinewav> .commands
Jul 03 13:11:26 2016 <sinewav> ]commands
Jul 03 13:11:27 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: d, d, roulette, d, r, roulette, kek, dicks, good, nicks, r, roulette, seen, roulette, r, !, !repeat100, /me, 8ball, 93a, a, aawiki, abs, abstain, abstains, acronym, action, add, addsabutton, addup, aeromax, aids, aiias, aka, alert, aliasb, alot, andre, announce, announce add, announce list, announce remove, any, apple, appless, apply, appreciate, apropos, armaconfig, as, at, (19 more messages)
Jul 03 13:11:40 2016 <sinewav> .more
Jul 03 13:11:45 2016 <sinewav> ]more
Jul 03 13:11:45 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: avgprc, ay, ayyyyy, b%, b&, b&-, b&random, badbot, baddude, badequals, baka, ban, ban add, ban list, ban remove, base, bc,blocks, bc,calc, bc,calcd, bc,calcdiff, bc,calcgh, bc,calckh, bc,calcmh, bc,calcth, bc,calcᵇh, bc,calcᵐh, bc,diff, bc,difficulty, bc,eligius, bc,eligius,calc, bc,eligiuseu, bc,eligiuseu,calc, bc,eligiuslastfoundby, bc,eligiusra, bc,eligiussu, bc,eligiusti, bc,eligiusus, (18 more messages)
Jul 03 13:11:49 2016 <sinewav> ]more
Jul 03 13:11:50 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: bc,eligiusus,calc, bc,estimate, bc,estimateblocksleft, bc,gen, bc,gend, bc,gengh, bc,genkh, bc,genmh, bc,genth, bc,idealeff, bc,idealeffgh, bc,idealeffkh, bc,idealeffmh, bc,sharereward, bc,sharesperday, bcstats, be, best, bet, bib, bible, bit, bitch, bite, bits, bittwist, blah, blame, blockdiff, blocks, bold, bounty, bugs, bye, byte, bzr, c, calc, candy, capabilities, capability add, capability list, (17 more messages)
Jul 03 13:11:56 2016 <sinewav> ]more
Jul 03 13:11:57 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: capability remove, capability set, capability setdefault, capability unset, capitalize, change, changename, channel, channels, charat, check, cheer, chocolate, chodes, chr, civdesu, civsong, claim, cmd, cnn, cocks, coin, coin3, coin3+, coinflp, col, color, command, commands, concat, config, connect, convert, cookie, coolstory, cpc, cpcbackup, cpu, ctcp, ctgroups, ctime, cut, cyborg, cycle, cyname, d, (16 more messages)
Jul 03 13:12:07 2016 <sinewav> ]more
Jul 03 13:12:07 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: d, d, dango, danisanidiot, dart, dart, dartattack, dartscore, dartscore, dccc, dccs, deathnote, debian, decode, default, defaultcapability, defaultplugin, dehalfop, deop, desu, desu2, devoice, dice, die, dieplz, dieplz2, dieplz3, diff, diffchange, ding, disable, disconnect, dn, doctype, dongers, dorkabot, downs, dre, drink, driver, drv, e, echo, eightball, elapsed, enable, encode, eq, eqs, (15 more messages)
Jul 03 13:12:13 2016 <sinewav> ]more
Jul 03 13:12:14 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: equals, equalsstring, es, estimate, everyonewins, ewong, export, f40ph, fack, fail, fake, fakeidol, faustov, fetch, field, fish, fist, flip, flush, fmt, foo, force, format, fu, fuck, fun, fur, g5, ge, genprob, genrate, gentime, get, getstatus, ghost, gishslap, give, go, gooo, grandentrance, greet, gt, gte, gtfo, gtr, guard, guess, guessinit, guessnum, guessnumeq, guessnumgt, guessnuminit, guessnumlt, (14 more messages)
Jul 03 13:12:26 2016 <sinewav> ]help generate
Jul 03 13:12:26 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: Error: There is no command "generate".
Jul 03 13:13:41 2016 <sinewav> ]help randomize
Jul 03 13:13:41 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: Error: There is no command "randomize".
Jul 03 13:13:47 2016 <sinewav> ]more
Jul 03 13:13:47 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: h, hakushu, halfop, halfreward, ham, hanyuu, harryy, harryyy, hashrate, hassoon, hayaku, he, headers, hello, help, herro, heto, hextarget, hicks, hoe, hostmask, hostmask add, hostmask list, hostmask remove, how, hui, hurryup, hw, i, i'll, iam, iamawesome, iambaka, iamciv, iamcoin, iamconfused, iamcorpse, iamdead, iamdrugs, iamghost, iamgod, iamhider, iaminnocent, iamjanitor, iamjanthranitor, iamkira, (13 more messages)
Jul 03 13:13:54 2016 <sinewav> ]more
Jul 03 13:13:55 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: iamnecro, iamnecrodere, iampythonsnake, iamscured, iamtokyo, iamtree, iamtroll, iamtsundere, iamuseless, iamvouched, iamyandere, iamyummy, iamzombie, icalc, icecream, identify, idol, if, if1, ifiwasyou, ignore, ignore add, ignore list, ignore remove, ihaveahunchits, illya, ilose, inf, info, innerloop, insa, insas, instahashrate, instanthashrate, insult, interval, invite, ircquote, ircstats, is, isawyou, (12 more messages)
Jul 03 13:14:01 2016 <sinewav> ]more
Jul 03 13:14:01 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: isgreat, issue, itsalie, ivouch, ivouch$nick, iwin, janthrandom, java, jimp, join, jointheyanderegametoplayandhaveafuntime, junka, junkajustanother, junkaother, junkasomeone, kban, kde2, key, kick, kickban, kickme, kicks, kill, king, knock, kyun, l2alias, l2r, ladlesignup, lag, lagging, lags, lamperi, last, lastseen, latency, later,, lawd, lbargue, le, len, levenshtein, lick, lickban, limit, list, (11 more messages)
Jul 03 13:14:05 2016 <sinewav> ]more
Jul 03 13:14:06 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: ljrbot, load, loadvar, lobotomy add, lobotomy list, lobotomy remove, lock, log, lolly, lolwut, lookatswitch, loop, loopinner, loopinner2, loopinner3, love, lower, ls, lt, lte, lukejr, lynch, m, make, man, marry, mb53, md5, meat, mememe, meo, meow, milk, missed, mizardx, mode, moderate, moikai, monologue, more, motd, motd0, motd1, motdlast, mudkip, music, myip, myrlchan, n, namez, nanobot, naughty, (10 more messages)
Jul 03 13:14:10 2016 <sinewav> ]more
Jul 03 13:14:11 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: nazibackup, ne, necro, neonazi, net, netcraft, nethash, networks, newgame, nextretarget, nibble, nick, nicks, nigs, nihonjin, no, nobaka, nonce, nope, not, notes, nowai!, ny, nyan, nybble, oi, okayonemoregame, onemoretime, op, ops, ord, orly, orly?, oskitchen, otako, otoh, otoh,, over, pachi, part, password, patent, payout, payout1, payouts, petition, phokeu, ping, pingtime, pino, piny, pissoffluke, (9 more messages)
Jul 03 13:14:16 2016 <sinewav> ]more
Jul 03 13:14:16 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: pjoin, play, playas, pls, pmtq, pong, poop, powerup, ppotter?, pps, president, prevdiff, prevdiffchange, pstart, quit, quote, rand, random, randombible, randomint, randomnick, randomteam, randvote, rape, rate, rating, rating2, re, readthese, realcoin, realisticthreesidedcoin, reconnect, redefine, register, rekt, reload, rem, remalias, reminder, remove, removealias, removesabutton, ren, rename, repr, (8 more messages)
Jul 03 13:14:29 2016 <sinewav> ]help rand
Jul 03 13:14:29 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: (rand <an alias, 0 arguments>) -- Alias for "echo (random [<channel>]) -- Returns a random quote from <channel>. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent in the channel itself.".
Jul 03 13:14:39 2016 <sinewav> ]help random
Jul 03 13:14:39 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
Jul 03 13:14:48 2016 <sinewav> ]help random
Jul 03 13:14:49 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
Jul 03 13:14:59 2016 <sinewav> ]help randomteam
Jul 03 13:14:59 2016 <ljrbot> sinewav: (randomteam <an alias, 0 arguments>) -- Alias for "fetch [concat http://crazy-tronners.com/kyle/random_2.php?teams=[urlquote $*]]".
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Jul 03 14:30:36 2016 <ct|kyle> ]randometeam 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Jul 03 14:30:36 2016 <ljrbot> ct|kyle: Error: "randometeam" is not a valid command.
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Jul 03 16:30:54 2016 <AmarokNelg> !scramble hi how are
Jul 03 16:30:54 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: ih
Jul 03 16:30:55 2016 <AmarokNelg> weird
Jul 03 17:07:05 2016 <AmarokNelg> !scramble hi how are
Jul 03 17:07:05 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg: r we oah
Jul 03 17:07:08 2016 <AmarokNelg> lol
Jul 03 17:07:45 2016 <AmarokNelg> !scramble 123456789
Jul 03 17:07:45 2016 <nelg-bot> AmarokNelg:
Jul 03 17:24:55 2016 <AmarokNelg> kyle you mispelled randomteam
Jul 03 17:25:00 2016 <AmarokNelg> ]randomteam 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Jul 03 17:25:01 2016 <ljrbot> AmarokNelg: http://crazy-tronners.com/kyle/random/rand160703172459.txt 4, ~bye~6, 1, 7, 9, ~bye~2, ~bye~3, 10, 2, ~bye~4, ~bye~1, 5, 6, 8, ~bye~5, 3
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Jul 03 23:26:32 2016 <ct|kyle> AmarokNelg: I know
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Log from 2016-07-04:
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Jul 04 13:39:57 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 04 13:39:57 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 04 13:39:57 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Jul 04 22:59:54 2016 * Disconnected (Connection reset by peer).
Jul 04 23:00:23 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 04 23:00:24 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 04 23:00:24 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Log from 2016-07-05:
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Log from 2016-07-06:
Jul 06 00:41:03 2016 * Disconnected (Connection reset by peer).
Jul 06 00:41:41 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 06 00:41:41 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 06 00:41:41 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Jul 06 15:20:14 2016 <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.4-armagetronad-work] r1592 Adapting recording links to go to current user's desktop, no...
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Jul 06 21:51:58 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 06 21:51:58 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Jul 06 23:46:04 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 06 23:46:04 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Log from 2016-07-07:
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Jul 07 15:12:03 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 07 15:12:03 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Log from 2016-07-08:
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Jul 08 02:23:06 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 08 02:23:06 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Jul 08 18:30:09 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 08 18:30:09 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Jul 08 18:45:23 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 08 18:45:23 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Jul 08 19:55:19 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 08 19:55:19 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Jul 09 15:58:32 2016 <Lucifer_arma> ]later tell sinewav hey dude, got any free hardware? ;) I'm looking for an ethernet card....
Jul 09 15:58:32 2016 <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: The operation succeeded.
Jul 09 15:58:47 2016 <Lucifer_arma> does anybody get their "later tell" messages?
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Jul 09 16:53:45 2016 <Lucifer_arma> sinewav: ping
Jul 09 16:54:19 2016 <Lucifer_arma> sinewav: nvm, just read your post on the forums :)
Jul 09 17:10:29 2016 <sinewav> That reminds me, I need to email a reminder to my work account so I don't forget.
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Jul 10 10:47:19 2016 <Jip> \o
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Log from 2016-07-11:
Jul 11 01:41:11 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: random question: How easy would it be to factor out all of arma's network-specific code and generalize it for "any" game to use?
Jul 11 01:41:43 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm curious because my son wants to write one of those really nerdy bridge simulators, since we're having trouble getting any of them to work (except quintet, which seems to be focused on combat)
Jul 11 01:42:30 2016 <Lucifer_arma> and every time I look at network libraries, particularly in python where there are so few, they don't handle the basics that I don't want to deal with, like joining a server/authentication, pinging clients, etc.
Jul 11 01:42:38 2016 <Lucifer_arma> You know, all the bookkeeping.
Jul 11 01:43:20 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I doubt that arma's would be easy to generalize, I'm just curious how hard it would actually be. Sort of a way to get an idea how hard it'll be to write from scratch all that stuff.
Jul 11 01:43:44 2016 <Lucifer_arma> and also more than a little annoyed that there's no existing library that handles that (don't get me started with Twisted, either)
Jul 11 01:52:35 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Also, a more specific question, when you receive a datagram, how do you figure out which protocol buffer class to use to unserialize it? Is there a helper class for that, or did you have to write your own code for it?
Jul 11 01:52:55 2016 * Lucifer_arma considers looking at the source, heh.
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Jul 11 16:19:56 2016 <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1463 Cleaning up fix so the current code looks better. || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1462 Applying minimal fix attempt to GCC 6 compilation. Disabling...
Jul 11 16:21:43 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: ok, now I'm really stumped, heh. Looking for where you decode net messages, and not finding it.
Jul 11 16:22:22 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I found someone saying to encapsulate all messages as members of a gigantic class and that'll make protobuf do all the sorting/parsing and stuff for me
Jul 11 16:23:11 2016 <Lucifer_arma> on the other hand, I can go through all the work needed to create a lookup table and just make the first 2 bytes of every message a unique id for the message type, which is what I did when I was parsing by hand
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Jul 11 17:03:52 2016 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: as dar as i remember, you instantiate a global object for each kind of message. That object's constructor takes a message ID and a callback and registers this information in some global array
Jul 11 17:05:50 2016 <wrtlprnft> So there's no central place in the code where all the mesdage IDs and handlers are listed, but the IDs are still assigned manually (I guess the game will complain if you try to register the same ID multiple times)
Jul 11 17:06:28 2016 <wrtlprnft> But all this information is from before the protobuf migration, not sure how that changed things
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Jul 11 17:37:03 2016 <Lucifer_arma> wrtlprnft: the protobuf migration shouldn't change things at all, especially since the protobuf migration is backwards-compatible for the most part, without just switching to the old code (i.e. the older protocols are still encoded/decoded with protobuf)
Jul 11 17:37:47 2016 <Lucifer_arma> so you're basically talking about a lookup table, where I'd register all the IDs for each message type, and when I receive a message, I have to manually unpack the first couple of bytes or so to find out what message type it is
Jul 11 17:38:02 2016 <Lucifer_arma> then get a protobuf object and have it do the decoding
Jul 11 17:38:52 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I mean, get the correct protobuf object and have it do the decoding
Jul 11 17:40:25 2016 <Lucifer_arma> In case you're curious, I'm working on a python game network library that'll handle all the bookkeeping involved in keeping clients connected. Essentially, what I was complaining about nobody having done yet.
Jul 11 17:40:53 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I've got a game my son wants to work on when this library is functional enough, but there's very little he can do until then
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Log from 2016-07-12:
Jul 12 00:16:25 2016 * luke-jr (~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr) has joined #armagetron
Jul 12 00:54:58 2016 <wrtlprnft> You could probably think of it as a protobuf factory if you like those terms :-D
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Jul 12 01:30:43 2016 <Lucifer_arma> wrtlprnft: that's what I ended up making, and no, I don't like those terms, heh.
Jul 12 01:31:14 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I made a lookup that looks up by id and returns a type, and a lookup by string that then looks for the id so it can find and return the type
Jul 12 01:32:21 2016 <Lucifer_arma> the harder part was figuring out that I had to prepend the type ID to the serialized stream, so I didn't escape using struct. But it was trivial to see how big the message received is, subtract the size of the id, and then create a struct format string to extract the id and leave the payload untouched so that googe buffers can unserialize it
Jul 12 04:30:37 2016 * nelg-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
Jul 12 14:52:12 2016 <wrtlprnft> hey, you could open a socket and assign a port for each message type :-D
Jul 12 14:53:10 2016 <wrtlprnft> and sorry, I'm apparently bad at answering to messages in a reasonable timespan :-D
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Jul 12 15:02:03 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 12 15:02:03 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 12 15:02:03 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Jul 12 15:04:23 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 12 15:04:23 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 12 15:04:23 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Jul 12 16:55:42 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 12 16:55:42 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 12 16:55:42 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
Jul 12 16:56:14 2016 <Lucifer_arma> well, it's just a game library, so how dangerous can it be even if the connection is hijacked? I'm not planning on trying to support in-game purchasing protocols or anything
Jul 12 16:56:46 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Just a general-purpose udp-based network library for games
Jul 12 16:57:14 2016 <Lucifer_arma> python, of course. Which reminds me, I need to check to see if google protocol buffers in python is pure python, or if they use a c library under the hood
Jul 12 16:58:25 2016 <wrtlprnft> just saying that I don't see a point in using a simple salt in this application
Jul 12 16:59:43 2016 <Lucifer_arma> so there's nothing other than pings that I need to do to maintain connections? I've set four different levels of connection status based on when the last pings were acked
Jul 12 17:00:17 2016 <Lucifer_arma> should I consider packet loss while determining a connection's status? Like, they could have responded to a ping within the last 5 seconds, but only responded to one of five, so as it stands now, they'd be C_OK.
Jul 12 17:01:07 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Maybe I should mark them C_SORTOFOK
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Jul 12 17:06:38 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 12 17:06:38 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 12 17:06:38 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
Jul 12 17:06:52 2016 <Lucifer_arma> arma has a very mature network layer ;)
Jul 12 17:07:07 2016 <wrtlprnft> including a partial PHP implementation, of all things
Jul 12 17:07:07 2016 <Lucifer_arma> if I could run a script and have it turned magically into a python-only game network library, I'd have done that already
Jul 12 17:07:55 2016 <Lucifer_arma> well, there's no harm sticking a timestamp on queued messages now, even if I don't use them immediately
Jul 12 17:08:43 2016 <Lucifer_arma> erm, why didn't I think to include a timestamp in the message? Now I'm just slipping.
Jul 12 17:08:47 2016 <wrtlprnft> for what I'm suggesting, the timestamp wouldn't even be necessary, the order in the queue would suffice
Jul 12 17:09:36 2016 <wrtlprnft> timestamps are kind of useful if you're not even guaranteed that messages will arrive in the same order as you sent them
Jul 12 17:10:01 2016 <Lucifer_arma> for where I'm going, I think the timestamp will be necessary ultimately. I'm wanting to make a base class for game objects that need to be synced and have the network library handle it automatically.
Jul 12 17:10:25 2016 <Lucifer_arma> So the developer using the library just has to follow some basic conventions, but otherwise not even think about how the network works. That can be a black box as far as the game developer is concerned.
Jul 12 17:10:41 2016 <Lucifer_arma> using UDP, no guarantees the packets will arrive, let alone what order they'll be received in
Jul 12 17:10:58 2016 <Lucifer_arma> also, absolutely no intentions of supporting TCP
Jul 12 17:11:40 2016 <wrtlprnft> instead of having a queue of already-encoded messages, why not have a queue of the objects/property changes that need to be updated?
Jul 12 17:12:06 2016 <wrtlprnft> then, when you finally get around to send the message, you can use the most recent state instead of some potentially ancient value
Jul 12 17:12:08 2016 <Lucifer_arma> that's the queue, the serializing happens right before sending.
Jul 12 17:12:13 2016 <wrtlprnft> ah, i see
Jul 12 17:12:20 2016 <Lucifer_arma> wait, I see what you're saying
Jul 12 17:13:06 2016 <Lucifer_arma> current plan is to have a property change message type that sends small changes, like when only one or two properties change for an object, with regular full object syncs
Jul 12 17:13:19 2016 <wrtlprnft> but the receiver will still want timestamps so it can make sure not to update to an older state than what it already received
Jul 12 17:13:26 2016 <Lucifer_arma> those regular full object syncs should be the current object instead of, as you say, some potentially ancient value
Jul 12 17:13:52 2016 <Lucifer_arma> right, the receive will need to track last time synced as well as last time updated and discard older values
Jul 12 17:14:23 2016 <wrtlprnft> do you plan on sending ACKs?
Jul 12 17:14:41 2016 <Lucifer_arma> for every packet. Z-man told me some years back that arma ACKS every packet, so I figure I may as well do that too
Jul 12 17:14:50 2016 <Lucifer_arma> not multiple acks, just one per packet.
Jul 12 17:15:03 2016 <wrtlprnft> then you shouldn't ever need full-object syncs
Jul 12 17:15:03 2016 <Lucifer_arma> both sides can use acks to track packet loss, since they expect packets to be acked.
Jul 12 17:15:37 2016 <wrtlprnft> except on connection or object creation, of course
Jul 12 17:15:40 2016 <Lucifer_arma> what if both the update and the ack packets are lost?
Jul 12 17:16:04 2016 <wrtlprnft> huh?
Jul 12 17:16:14 2016 <wrtlprnft> if the update packet is lost, how can the ack ever be sent?
Jul 12 17:16:20 2016 <Lucifer_arma> consider what the information could be. In a RPG, the update packet could be "You got hit for 100 hit points".
Jul 12 17:16:22 2016 <Lucifer_arma> ah, good point
Jul 12 17:16:37 2016 <Lucifer_arma> and the server, if it doesn't receive acks for updates, can resend the update
Jul 12 17:16:49 2016 <Lucifer_arma> using fresh data, not just resending the unreceived packet
Jul 12 17:17:05 2016 <wrtlprnft> that's what arma does, as far as I know
Jul 12 17:17:37 2016 <wrtlprnft> the acks are just for the case that the value stops changing after the final lost update,
Jul 12 17:17:38 2016 <Lucifer_arma> arma sends periodic syncs of some sort, which is why when you're ultra-lagged, you get huge jumps
Jul 12 17:18:01 2016 <wrtlprnft> aren't these just a result of excessive missing acks?
Jul 12 17:18:42 2016 <Lucifer_arma> dunno. At a certain point, the two ways of responding to missing acks, when they're excessively missing, amount to the same thing: a full/mostly full object update.
Jul 12 17:19:04 2016 <wrtlprnft> yes, of course
Jul 12 17:19:35 2016 <wrtlprnft> but if you already know that the client has all the values, sending full syncs sounds like artificial lag to me
Jul 12 17:20:01 2016 <Lucifer_arma> checksums then
Jul 12 17:20:07 2016 <Lucifer_arma> faster than hashes, less reliable
Jul 12 17:20:28 2016 <Lucifer_arma> the client could do periodic checksums of objects and send that to the server. Server does the same thing. If they don't match, send a full sync.
Jul 12 17:20:48 2016 <Lucifer_arma> more robustness in exchange for a few bytes of extra bandwidth
Jul 12 17:20:55 2016 <wrtlprnft> i guess you don't trust your protocol ;-)
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Jul 12 17:21:16 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I don't trust connected clients. :)
Jul 12 17:21:49 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Also, my protocol right now only allows logins, and the login isn't acked yet. That's where I'm at. :)
Jul 12 17:22:46 2016 <Lucifer_arma> but, you know, trying to figure out where it's going helps to figure out where to put the message-sending and how to organize the various queues involved.
Jul 12 17:29:09 2016 <Z-Man> Lucifer: Trying to answer things in order, it would not be terribly difficult to steal arma's protocol. Yank out the tools and network directories and you're done. It would not be a terribly good idea, though. It's got lots of baggage with backwards compatibility, for starters, and the code and design quality is on par with the rest of the game :)
Jul 12 17:29:36 2016 <Z-Man> nDescriptor is the class that manages which datagram is interpreted as which protobuf message class.
Jul 12 17:30:22 2016 <Z-Man> (I'll phase out again now, just installed quasselclient on my wife's laptop)
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Jul 12 22:16:26 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 12 22:16:26 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 12 22:16:26 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Log from 2016-07-13:
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Jul 13 10:48:09 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 13 10:48:09 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 13 10:48:09 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
Jul 13 12:23:32 2016 * Guest57901823 (~LS@cpc76140-clif11-2-0-cust43.12-4.cable.virginm.net) has joined #armagetron
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Jul 13 15:13:57 2016 <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: Oh, there was nothing else for me to comment on. wrtlprnft said all the rest already.
Jul 13 16:11:07 2016 * G5 (~g5@p2003006A6A7BA200A83787A46F04A300.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #armagetron
Jul 13 17:01:18 2016 <Z-Man> Also, my memory is really, really bad :( With the tablet at least temporarily borked, we brought the wife's netbook here to my mother in law. She's got wifi, so everything should be all right.
Jul 13 17:01:50 2016 <Z-Man> Except that to my surprise, the netbook did not want to talk to the wifi at all, it was invisible. Probably on some channel it can't see.
Jul 13 17:02:13 2016 <Z-Man> Then I remembered that the same thing happened last year and that I should have known about it.
Jul 13 17:02:37 2016 <Z-Man> Then I pondered the option to connect the netbook with an ethernet cable.
Jul 13 17:02:55 2016 <Z-Man> THEN I remembered that's what I did last year already.
Jul 13 17:03:45 2016 <Z-Man> Then I tried to remember what I did with the cable, concluding I must have taken it home and it's now the cable connecting the raspi to our net.
Jul 13 17:04:00 2016 <ct|kyle> Z-Man: who's z-girl? :P
Jul 13 17:04:26 2016 <Z-Man> And only after a day or two, I noticed the cable sticking out of the router, with no device it could possibly go to.
Jul 13 17:04:39 2016 <Z-Man> It was all tidied up and went nowhere.
Jul 13 17:04:54 2016 <Z-Man> It was the cable I bought last year.
Jul 13 17:05:48 2016 <Z-Man> ct|kyle: Z-Girl would be my daughter. Well, how I call her here, anyway. Haven't given anyone her real name here.
Jul 13 17:06:22 2016 <ct|kyle> Z-Man: just wanted to check your memory :)
Jul 13 17:06:30 2016 <Z-Man> Her full name is so long she'd be completely identifyable, and if I only give her first two names and you google them, you land at a porn site.
Jul 13 17:06:42 2016 <Z-Man> Ah, thanks!
Jul 13 17:06:46 2016 <Z-Man> Did it pass?
Jul 13 17:06:51 2016 <ct|kyle> yes
Jul 13 17:06:55 2016 <Z-Man> woo!
Jul 13 17:08:02 2016 <ct|kyle> isent z-girl a little young to have a porn site?
Jul 13 17:08:33 2016 <Z-Man> IT'S NOT HERS!
Jul 13 17:08:47 2016 <Z-Man> Though from the casual glance, it's quite a classy porn site.
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Jul 13 18:28:43 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I've honestly never googled my kids' names looking for porn sites ;)
Jul 13 20:02:47 2016 * Disconnected (Connection reset by peer).
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Jul 13 20:03:21 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 13 20:03:21 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 13 20:03:21 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Log from 2016-07-14:
Jul 14 01:38:51 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 14 01:38:51 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 14 01:38:51 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
Jul 14 01:43:37 2016 * Lucifer_arma (~Lucifer_a@cpe-66-68-59-243.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #armagetron
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Jul 14 08:04:31 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 14 08:04:31 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 14 08:04:31 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Jul 14 10:49:41 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 14 10:49:41 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 14 10:49:41 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Jul 14 18:08:06 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 14 18:08:06 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Jul 14 18:09:29 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 14 18:09:29 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 14 18:09:29 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Jul 14 20:21:26 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 14 20:21:26 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 14 20:21:26 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Jul 14 20:51:20 2016 <Lucifer_arma> well, it looks like to set up my xbox360 controllers to work as joysticks in all of the emulators, I'm going to have to map its buttons to keys and give the same keybinds to each emulator :/
Jul 14 20:52:22 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'll have to configure native games to work the same way. Grrrr.
Jul 14 20:52:48 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I should probably build arma and test it with the xpad kernel module before I do all that
Jul 14 20:53:23 2016 <Lucifer_arma> of course, if I use the same keybinds that mythtv uses, then I'll be able to control mythtv with a controller.....
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Log from 2016-07-15:
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Jul 15 01:32:33 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 15 01:32:33 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 15 01:32:33 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
Jul 15 12:04:54 2016 * Disconnected (Connection timed out).
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Jul 15 12:53:02 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 15 12:53:02 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 15 12:53:02 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
Jul 15 15:25:23 2016 * Disconnected (Connection reset by peer).
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Jul 15 15:25:55 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 15 15:25:55 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 15 15:25:55 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
Jul 15 15:27:05 2016 * Lucifer_arma (~Lucifer_a@cpe-66-68-59-243.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #armagetron
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Jul 15 20:35:24 2016 <Lucifer_arma> woohoo! I can read again!
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Log from 2016-07-16:
Jul 16 00:05:46 2016 * ct|kyle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
Jul 16 01:29:20 2016 <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1463 Cleaning up fix so the current code looks better. || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1462 Applying minimal fix attempt to GCC 6 compilation. Disabling... || [0.4-armagetronad-work] r1592 Adapting recording links to go to current user's desktop, no...
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Jul 16 11:31:43 2016 <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1463 Cleaning up fix so the current code looks better. || [0.2.8-armagetronad-work] r1462 Applying minimal fix attempt to GCC 6 compilation. Disabling... || [0.4-armagetronad-work] r1592 Adapting recording links to go to current user's desktop, no...
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**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jul 16 20:46:24 2016
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jul 16 20:46:55 2016
Jul 16 20:46:55 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 16 20:46:56 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 16 20:46:56 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
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Log from 2016-07-17:
Jul 17 00:15:18 2016 * G5 (~g5@p2003006A6A7BA200A14AEA9EEB661508.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #armagetron
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Jul 17 08:52:03 2016 * Titanoboa (53fa7a17@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.250.122.23) has joined #armagetron
Jul 17 08:52:24 2016 <Titanoboa> theocrite: u there?
Jul 17 08:52:28 2016 <Titanoboa> theocrite_: u there?
Jul 17 08:52:58 2016 <Titanoboa> peatcoal: is theo alive?
Jul 17 08:53:48 2016 <Titanoboa> dear community, forgive me for what's about to happen, but I gotta know and I can't stay for too long...... so here we go
Jul 17 08:53:59 2016 <Titanoboa> AmarokNelg2: you there?
Jul 17 08:54:02 2016 <Titanoboa> danar: you there?
Jul 17 08:54:06 2016 <Titanoboa> dlh: you there?
Jul 17 08:54:23 2016 <Titanoboa> dom96: you there?
Jul 17 08:54:33 2016 <Titanoboa> G5: hi. is you there?
Jul 17 08:54:43 2016 <Titanoboa> Guest57901823: hi
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Jul 17 08:55:17 2016 <Titanoboa> guru3_: are you there?
Jul 17 08:55:23 2016 <Titanoboa> ihptru: are you here?
Jul 17 08:55:32 2016 <Titanoboa> ljrbot: ping
Jul 17 08:55:32 2016 <ljrbot> pong
Jul 17 08:55:33 2016 <dom96> Titanoboa: sup?
Jul 17 08:55:38 2016 <Titanoboa> dom96: hi! :)
Jul 17 08:55:46 2016 <Titanoboa> I wanna know that theocrite is alive and well
Jul 17 08:55:59 2016 <Titanoboa> has he been active in the last 2 days?
Jul 17 08:56:20 2016 <Titanoboa> ljrbot: last from theocrite
Jul 17 08:56:21 2016 <ljrbot> Titanoboa: (last [--{from,in,on,with,without,regexp} <value>] [--nolimit]) -- Returns the last message matching the given criteria. --from requires a nick from whom the message came; --in requires a channel the message was sent to; --on requires a network the message was sent on; --with requires some string that had to be in the message; --regexp requires a regular expression the message must match; --nolimit (1 more message)
Jul 17 08:56:22 2016 <dom96> Not as far as I can see, although I don't really pay much attention to this channel I'm afraid.
Jul 17 08:56:49 2016 <Titanoboa> uh, how do I use "last from"?
Jul 17 08:56:50 2016 <Titanoboa> ljrbot: last from "theocrite"
Jul 17 08:56:51 2016 <ljrbot> Titanoboa: (last [--{from,in,on,with,without,regexp} <value>] [--nolimit]) -- Returns the last message matching the given criteria. --from requires a nick from whom the message came; --in requires a channel the message was sent to; --on requires a network the message was sent on; --with requires some string that had to be in the message; --regexp requires a regular expression the message must match; --nolimit (1 more message)
Jul 17 08:56:55 2016 <Titanoboa> ljrbot: last --from "theocrite"
Jul 17 08:56:55 2016 <ljrbot> Titanoboa: Error: I couldn't find a message matching that criteria in my history of 1000 messages.
Jul 17 08:56:58 2016 <Titanoboa> ljrbot: last --from theocrite
Jul 17 08:56:59 2016 <ljrbot> Titanoboa: Error: I couldn't find a message matching that criteria in my history of 1000 messages.
Jul 17 08:57:28 2016 <Titanoboa> Lucifer_arma: you here?
Jul 17 08:57:35 2016 <Titanoboa> luke-jr: same question
Jul 17 08:57:41 2016 <Titanoboa> MrBougo: you?
Jul 17 08:57:55 2016 <Titanoboa> dom96: thanks for trying to help :)
Jul 17 08:58:04 2016 <Titanoboa> noob13: ohai
Jul 17 08:58:07 2016 <Titanoboa> P4: hi
Jul 17 08:58:11 2016 <dom96> np
Jul 17 08:58:11 2016 <Titanoboa> peatcoal: hola
Jul 17 08:58:21 2016 <Titanoboa> theocrite: hihihi?
Jul 17 08:58:25 2016 <Titanoboa> tronner: ping
Jul 17 08:58:35 2016 <Titanoboa> wrtlprnft: are you here?
Jul 17 08:58:40 2016 <Titanoboa> Z-Man: ^ same query
Jul 17 08:58:44 2016 <Titanoboa> \u03b5: x3
Jul 17 09:08:45 2016 <Titanoboa> bahhhhh I gotta go
Jul 17 09:09:37 2016 <Titanoboa> Lucifer_arma or \u03b5 if either of you can confirm that theocrite is safe and sound after what went down on Thursday, could you send me a quick fb chat message? Would appreciate it, thanks.
Jul 17 09:09:47 2016 <Titanoboa> ciao y'all o/
Jul 17 09:09:51 2016 * Titanoboa (53fa7a17@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.250.122.23) has left #armagetron
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Jul 17 11:19:14 2016 <MrBougo> whois says he was active on freenode 2 days + 2 hours ago
Jul 17 12:54:44 2016 <theocrite_> MrBougo: he already left. :) But if anyone could tell him that it's ok so that he could stop worrying, that would be nice. :)
Jul 17 13:05:52 2016 <MrBougo> theocrite_: yeah I noticed, it was more of a FYI for the rest of the channel. Good to see you're okay, even though I don't know you :)
Jul 17 13:11:29 2016 <theocrite_> :)
Jul 17 13:11:31 2016 <theocrite_> <3
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Jul 17 16:49:11 2016 <Lucifer_arma> what went down? Suicidal? Bad drug deal?
Jul 17 16:49:27 2016 <Lucifer_arma> ]later tell Titanoboa Theocrite is alive and well and sends you his love
Jul 17 16:49:28 2016 <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: The operation succeeded.
Jul 17 16:50:37 2016 <Lucifer_arma> theocrite_: ping ;)
Jul 17 17:00:59 2016 * G5 has quit ()
Jul 17 20:40:46 2016 <theocrite_> Lucifer_arma: thx.
Jul 17 20:41:30 2016 <theocrite_> Lucifer_arma: I suppose titanoboa was concerned about the attack that took place in Nice 4 days ago.
Jul 17 20:42:09 2016 <theocrite_> But actually Nice is far away from where I live (around Paris).
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Jul 17 22:16:49 2016 <Lucifer_arma> theocrite_: ah, right. Forgot you were in France, heh.
Log from 2016-07-18:
Jul 18 00:18:08 2016 <luke-jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/screenshots/snapshot148.png
Jul 18 01:10:32 2016 * ct|kyle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
Jul 18 02:04:10 2016 <Lucifer_arma> luke-jr: next time, say "For Pokemon Go stuff that nobody cares about"
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Jul 18 13:05:44 2016 * theocrite_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
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Jul 18 22:28:27 2016 <Lucifer_arma> so here's an idea
Jul 18 22:28:47 2016 <Lucifer_arma> let's say you're suffering packet loss so badly that two out of every three packets goes missing
Jul 18 22:29:24 2016 <Lucifer_arma> now, in a standard situation, that means that two out of three packets' worth of information is lost, unless they get resent when not acked
Jul 18 22:29:52 2016 <Lucifer_arma> so, knowing that you'll increase the size of the packets, what if you, knowing this is the packet loss rate, go ahead and bundle, say, four messages in each packet?
Jul 18 22:31:08 2016 <Lucifer_arma> then, two out of three can go missing, but the one that gets there has all the information for all three
Jul 18 22:31:38 2016 <Lucifer_arma> the only serious issue I'm seeing (besides the potential for wasted bandwidth) is whether or not increasing the packet size to include 4x as many messages will also increase the overall packet loss
Jul 18 22:32:04 2016 <ct|kyle> it probaboly will
Jul 18 22:32:40 2016 <Lucifer_arma> badly enough to make it not worth it? Like, at least linear?
Jul 18 22:33:16 2016 <ct|kyle> that i'm not sure
Jul 18 22:33:31 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I suppose it would have to be tested. Maybe Z-man will know, heh.
Jul 18 22:33:58 2016 <ct|kyle> (playing with wireless packets at work right now, trying to opitimize the data we send)
Jul 18 22:34:02 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm not about to put that in my network game library, that's an "advanced" feature (assuming it even works) and I'm still working on managing connections in a basic way
Jul 18 22:34:24 2016 <Lucifer_arma> well, you're probably in a good spot to try it, if it can be done reasonably easily
Jul 18 22:34:54 2016 <ct|kyle> also how much extra procssing will be neede to filter out messages if you do get all packets?
Jul 18 22:35:06 2016 <ct|kyle> or know what ones to keep
Jul 18 22:35:11 2016 <Lucifer_arma> not much, really.
Jul 18 22:35:22 2016 <Lucifer_arma> well, you give every packet an id, and if you've already received one, discard others.
Jul 18 22:36:10 2016 <Lucifer_arma> you'd have to keep a window, of course, but a 5-10 second window isn't too bad. You might keep a window as big as your timeout value.
Jul 18 22:36:14 2016 <ct|kyle> I assume they are all fixed sized also, even if not, you can put the most recent first
Jul 18 22:36:19 2016 <Lucifer_arma> efficient searches are the rule at that point
Jul 18 22:36:39 2016 <Lucifer_arma> they don't have to be fixed size, either, but you'd need a way to delineate where one message ends and another begins.
Jul 18 22:37:22 2016 <Lucifer_arma> using python, you'd make the first 4 bytes (or so) the type of the packet, and the second 4 bytes (or so) the size. Then cut out the first message, parse it (google protocol buffers is quite fast), then move on to the next.
Jul 18 22:37:24 2016 <ct|kyle> you just start them with a size of how long the message is
Jul 18 22:38:02 2016 <Lucifer_arma> well, that's an aesthetic decision, to be honest. Using protobuf, you still have to reserve bytes for the type of message so you can get the right class to use to parse it
Jul 18 22:38:03 2016 <ct|kyle> (ya, almost exactly what we are doing at work :P
Jul 18 22:38:30 2016 <Lucifer_arma> when you're packaging messages together, you'd make the first 4 bytes the message id
Jul 18 22:38:52 2016 <Lucifer_arma> that way, when you receive one message id, and you've already processed a message with the same id, you can ignore others you might receive
Jul 18 22:39:25 2016 <Lucifer_arma> one call to the struct module to parse out the packet id (I meant packet ID in that last two), then check to see if you've received it already
Jul 18 22:39:31 2016 <Lucifer_arma> if so, continue. If not, parse it.
Jul 18 22:39:55 2016 <ct|kyle> ya
Jul 18 22:40:09 2016 <Lucifer_arma> when you get the length of the section to parse, you subtract that from the length of the remaining buffer and construct a format string accordingly (I'm already doing that, so I hae handy code if you want it)
Jul 18 22:42:20 2016 <ct|kyle> what I am doing at work is java code with a radio. Most of it is done, we've just gotten into optemizing it for what we are now doing with it
Jul 18 22:42:50 2016 <Lucifer_arma> ah. You're far ahead of where I'm at, heh. ;)
Jul 18 22:43:16 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I've just got the server pinging the client, the client acking, and the server tracking the status of the client, and making that somewhat reciprocal (the client pings every 2 seconds, the server every second)
Jul 18 22:43:45 2016 <Lucifer_arma> and I'm using a shit-ton of bandwidth for no reason, indicating I'm not clearing one of my queues properly. So I need to find that problem next.
Jul 18 22:43:51 2016 <ct|kyle> ah, ya we have a whole app around it
Jul 18 22:44:30 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm not quite near adding an app. I have to solve my bandwidth problem, do a few minor things involving connection management, and start implementing the callback interface
Jul 18 22:44:50 2016 <Lucifer_arma> when I have the callback interface started, then we can make a game client that can connect to a chat server, basically.
Jul 18 22:45:28 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'll make sure you can switch smoothly from lobby to game and back again, and disable lobby and drop straight into game, then start working on the game object hierarchy
Jul 18 22:45:41 2016 <Lucifer_arma> the library should provide a base class that makes game object's available to be synced over the network
Jul 18 22:46:18 2016 <Lucifer_arma> ideally, the game developer won't even have to think about the network beyond basic protocols needed to make the game work, which would be treated like any other events in an event-based setup
Jul 18 22:46:49 2016 <Lucifer_arma> (I'll probably make a default pygame-based game client that just sticks network events in the sdl event queue)
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Log from 2016-07-19:
Jul 19 00:36:07 2016 <Lucifer_arma> why is my while loop executing its body even when the statement evaluates to false?
Jul 19 03:42:53 2016 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: generally, unless your setup is completely broken, I would assume that the only reason for frequent packet losses is that you're using too much bandwidth
Jul 19 03:44:06 2016 <wrtlprnft> TCP does rate limiting based on this assumption
Jul 19 03:45:53 2016 <wrtlprnft> Packet losses due to checksum mismatches and the like should be extremely rare, at least on wired connections
Jul 19 03:47:00 2016 <wrtlprnft> And wifi does its own forward error correction and re-sending thing, even with UDP packets
Jul 19 03:49:51 2016 <wrtlprnft> Maybe increasing your data rate coud help in a situation where the bottleneck is shared with other people's connections, so by sending more data, more of their packets get lost, but that would be a dick move :-)
Jul 19 03:51:36 2016 <wrtlprnft> And I doubt that it would work for anything beyond maybe your home router
Jul 19 04:13:32 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Interesting. ;)
Jul 19 04:14:05 2016 <Lucifer_arma> On a different note, my 12yo is interested in programming, so I showed him the most important lines in any program you ever write. He lost interest.
Jul 19 04:14:10 2016 <Lucifer_arma> It was too much legalese.
Jul 19 04:14:24 2016 <Lucifer_arma> It was obviously the GPL headers you put at the beginning of a program.
Jul 19 04:49:04 2016 <wrtlprnft> I hate those
Jul 19 05:10:59 2016 <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: yes, there are situations with a high intrinsic packet loss. TV cable connections were notorious. In these situations, if timing is critical, it's beneficial to resend messages before you know they were lost.
Jul 19 05:11:42 2016 <Z-Man> X-Wing vs Tie Fighter categorically sent the two last messages with each packet, so each message got sent twice.
Jul 19 05:12:31 2016 <Z-Man> It was especially important for them because they used the strategy game network model: The messages contained only client input data and each client ran an independent simulation based on that input.
Jul 19 05:12:52 2016 <Z-Man> So to get the current gamestate right, you needed ALL of the previous messages.
Jul 19 05:13:11 2016 * Z-Man read their postmortem on Gamasutra
Jul 19 06:12:43 2016 <wrtlprnft> Doesn't TCP break completely with high packet loss?
Jul 19 06:13:29 2016 <wrtlprnft> Of course it depends on what you consider to be high
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Jul 19 10:57:43 2016 <Z-Man> wrtlprnft: yeah, it can break completely. I don't think it could handle the 66% packet loss of Lucifer's scenario. When on bad wifi, I've seen lost TCP connections more often than I've seen the wifi connection drop completely. But under not totally crap conditions, connections stay up, datarates just go way down.
Jul 19 11:10:06 2016 <wrtlprnft> Well, I suppise that for a randomly lost packet every couple of seconds, a TCP connection would suffer a bit, but for a game, it would probably be more annoying
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Jul 19 18:08:45 2016 <Lucifer_arma> freeciv uses tcp for its network layer, and it's downright shitty. When one player gets blocked for any reason, like their connection timing out, all players get blocked because the server blocks on that one person.
Jul 19 18:09:24 2016 <Lucifer_arma> for that reason, even when I add file transfers to my game library, it's going to use udp for everything. I figure game data doesn't have the high reliability requirement that tcp satisfies, so there's no reason any game should ever use tcp.
Jul 19 18:10:10 2016 <Lucifer_arma> now, for game data that does have that high reliability requirement (like file transfers), I have every intention of including the appropriate error checking and packet resending.
Jul 19 18:11:40 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I like the idea of automatically resending the last packet with the current one (excepting pings and acks, of course)
Jul 19 18:12:12 2016 <Lucifer_arma> the added redundancy would increase overall reliability without significantly impacting bandwidth usage (probably only increase bandwidth usage by 50% or so, since pings and acks are excepted)
Jul 19 18:22:49 2016 <Lucifer_arma> also, using udp, it's worth taking a page from bittorrent. With tcp file transfers, if you're waiting for a packet, it doesn't matter how many of the packets after it you've received, you still block on the socket read waiting for that one packet
Jul 19 18:23:24 2016 <Lucifer_arma> with udp, taking a page from bittorrent (which uses udp), for file transfers you can simply store the packets and link them in the proper order when you have enough file information to do so
Jul 19 18:24:19 2016 <Lucifer_arma> if you also track which packets you've missed, then in the event you timeout from the server before the file is completely transferred, when you reconnect you can tell the server which packets you've already received and it only has to send the ones you don't have.
Jul 19 18:25:06 2016 * Lucifer_arma has always wanted arma to do its own file transfers, server to clients
Jul 19 18:57:48 2016 <Lucifer_arma> while len(self.__incoming) > 0: <--- that means when the list self.__incoming is empty, the while loop should stop executing, right?
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Jul 19 22:55:36 2016 * ct|kyle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
Log from 2016-07-20:
Jul 20 03:10:03 2016 <wrtlprnft> Or never execute in the first place
Jul 20 03:10:27 2016 <wrtlprnft> I never suggested using tcp for a game
Jul 20 04:09:23 2016 <luke-jr> Lucifer_arma: … that's just bad code in Freeciv
Jul 20 04:09:31 2016 <luke-jr> TCP doesn't mandate blocking every client like that
Jul 20 04:11:15 2016 <Lucifer_arma> they could also do it in a different thread and it wouldn't block everybody (probably a different thread for each player, though, which admittedly would be a pain in the ass)
Jul 20 04:11:44 2016 <Lucifer_arma> wrtlprnft: no, didn't suggest you did. Comparing freeciv, another popular networked game, that's all.
Jul 20 04:11:55 2016 <Lucifer_arma> which made a few bad decisions along the way.
Jul 20 04:12:08 2016 <Lucifer_arma> sadly, now they're married to tcp, which is a DUMB decision on their part.
Jul 20 04:13:14 2016 <Lucifer_arma> but when you look at the protocol, you see why they rely on it so much. When you click on a unit, your client sends the server a message saying "I just picked this unit". Then the server acks that. Then you move it, and your client tells the server "I moved it <here> (only one space away)" and the server acks that and sends an object update
Jul 20 04:13:32 2016 <Lucifer_arma> their protocol is, imo, an excellent example of what not to do
Jul 20 04:14:04 2016 <luke-jr> lol
Jul 20 04:14:11 2016 <Lucifer_arma> if I were to write it, you'd select your unit and move it, and then your client would tell the server "I moved object <id> from <start> to <finish>". The server would validate the move and then ack it, assuming it was a valid move.
Jul 20 04:14:23 2016 <luke-jr> no kidding
Jul 20 04:14:54 2016 <Lucifer_arma> if not, it would update the object with a message basically saying "Stop trying to cheat, asshole"
Jul 20 04:14:59 2016 <luke-jr> lol
Jul 20 04:15:36 2016 <luke-jr> but, it allows all the rules to be server-side to at least attempt it client-side
Jul 20 04:15:40 2016 <Lucifer_arma> the client could even send the path so the server only has to validate the path walked.
Jul 20 04:16:06 2016 <Lucifer_arma> it does do that, luke-jr, but the problem is that it does it in too much of a hands-on position.
Jul 20 04:16:21 2016 <luke-jr> sure, I just mean in re "Stop trying to cheat" msg
Jul 20 04:16:25 2016 <Lucifer_arma> because then you get the client timing out problem where you're timing out, so I can't move my engineers
Jul 20 04:16:26 2016 <luke-jr> simply gracefully fail
Jul 20 04:16:56 2016 <Lucifer_arma> the server still has to enforce the rules and keep the game world sane
Jul 20 04:17:25 2016 <Lucifer_arma> so when, like now, you move a piece using the goto feature, and it encounters a previously unseen enemy and can't move, the client would send the complete path to the server
Jul 20 04:17:41 2016 <Lucifer_arma> the server would check each move in the path, find the previously unseen enemy, and stop the unit like it already does
Jul 20 04:18:02 2016 <Lucifer_arma> then it would send the update of the object which includes the path it actually walked and where it stopped.
Jul 20 04:18:18 2016 <luke-jr> seems like a nice night to go out trespassing on someone's property to catch pokemon and get shot at
Jul 20 04:18:19 2016 <Lucifer_arma> the client GUI should then move to show the stopped unit and why.
Jul 20 04:19:16 2016 <Lucifer_arma> but nowhere is tcp required. The client sends the move, it expects an ack, and it's an important ack. If it doesn't get the ack in a reasonable period of time (this is where Z-man was talking about some things being so important you just send them several times), then it resends.
Jul 20 04:19:38 2016 <luke-jr> meh, freeciv isn't that time sensitive
Jul 20 04:19:48 2016 <luke-jr> waiting 3 seconds to resend would be fine as long as it's not close to timeout
Jul 20 04:20:03 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm certain that if I give enough attention to freeciv, I could write a client that takes advantage of the tcp sockets used by the server to cheat horrendously
Jul 20 04:20:22 2016 <Lucifer_arma> it's tempting to do exactly that as a way to protest their shitty network layer and get them to write a better one
Jul 20 04:20:39 2016 <Lucifer_arma> but man, have you talked to freeciv developers? They're pretty arrogant.
Jul 20 04:20:57 2016 <luke-jr> have you seen Pokemon GO's protocol? :P
Jul 20 04:21:03 2016 <luke-jr> HTTP requests for everything
Jul 20 04:21:07 2016 <Lucifer_arma> really?
Jul 20 04:21:09 2016 <luke-jr> yes
Jul 20 04:21:18 2016 <luke-jr> it's pretty ugly
Jul 20 04:21:20 2016 <Lucifer_arma> that's actually not surprising, a lot of mobile apps use HTTP for everything
Jul 20 04:21:30 2016 <luke-jr> probably to get past firewalls
Jul 20 04:21:33 2016 <Lucifer_arma> it's scary and dumb how many apps use HTTP for their networking
Jul 20 04:21:55 2016 <Lucifer_arma> you could do a udp-based protocol on port 80 and get past firewalls
Jul 20 04:21:59 2016 <Lucifer_arma> well, most, anyway
Jul 20 04:22:01 2016 <luke-jr> not if they're HTTP proxies
Jul 20 04:22:03 2016 <luke-jr> :P
Jul 20 04:22:19 2016 <luke-jr> I put my SSH server on port 443, but some firewalls actually check for TLS :/
Jul 20 04:22:20 2016 <Lucifer_arma> that's a different situation, of course ;)
Jul 20 04:22:52 2016 <Lucifer_arma> that reminds me that I need to open the ssh port for my local server
Jul 20 04:23:03 2016 <Lucifer_arma> need my kids to be able to use bzr+ssh urls
Jul 20 04:23:16 2016 <luke-jr> there's a freaking Pikachu in my neighbor's yard
Jul 20 04:23:33 2016 <Lucifer_arma> my youngest wants to learn how to program, and he loves playing video games, so I'm thinking he can bite the bullet and learn enough java to play robocode
Jul 20 04:23:44 2016 <Lucifer_arma> what he learns there will translate to python or any other language
Jul 20 04:24:03 2016 <luke-jr> not necessarily
Jul 20 04:24:15 2016 <luke-jr> Java doesn't quite have pointers and manual memory management
Jul 20 04:24:19 2016 <Lucifer_arma> concepts will. Syntax won't, for the most part.
Jul 20 04:24:25 2016 <luke-jr> and it's certainly no functional programming
Jul 20 04:24:30 2016 <Lucifer_arma> neither does python, and python's what he really wants to learn
Jul 20 04:24:37 2016 * luke-jr stabs Python
Jul 20 04:24:40 2016 <Lucifer_arma> because that's what we use around here. We're a python home.
Jul 20 04:24:49 2016 <Lucifer_arma> fuck you and your python hate!
Jul 20 04:25:01 2016 <luke-jr> no u
Jul 20 04:25:09 2016 <luke-jr> why are you keeping me awake anyway
Jul 20 04:25:12 2016 <luke-jr> goodnight
Jul 20 04:25:13 2016 <Lucifer_arma> python:programming::english:international trade
Jul 20 04:25:55 2016 <Lucifer_arma> luke-jr: ping
Jul 20 04:25:59 2016 <luke-jr> die
Jul 20 04:26:07 2016 <Lucifer_arma> what? did I say something?
Jul 20 04:27:08 2016 <Lucifer_arma> luke-jr: ping
Jul 20 04:36:03 2016 <Lucifer_arma> luke-jr: ping
Jul 20 04:41:42 2016 <wrtlprnft> Lucifer_arma: t
Jul 20 04:42:12 2016 <Lucifer_arma> t?
Jul 20 04:42:23 2016 <wrtlprnft> there is no technical reason for firewalls to treat UDP port 80 in any special way
Jul 20 04:43:18 2016 <Lucifer_arma> um, allow it? I suppose I realize that firewalls do differentiate between tcp and udp traffic
Jul 20 04:43:32 2016 <wrtlprnft> Maybe some firewalls are poorly configured
Jul 20 04:44:09 2016 <Lucifer_arma> honestly, I don't care about this issue and have no interest in discussing it, which shouldn't be a surprise since luke-jr brought it up ;)
Jul 20 04:44:37 2016 <Lucifer_arma> but I have to admit I'm tempted to try a bit of pokemon go, just to see what all the hoopla is about
Jul 20 04:44:45 2016 <wrtlprnft> That's fine with me
Jul 20 04:45:13 2016 <wrtlprnft> Meh, i would need a spare smartphone for that
Jul 20 04:45:20 2016 <Lucifer_arma> spare?
Jul 20 04:45:29 2016 <Lucifer_arma> you're not willing to try it on your current phone?
Jul 20 04:45:38 2016 <wrtlprnft> No way this app is getting installed on my phone
Jul 20 04:45:49 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I realize there are huge privacy issues, and people have been robbed/raped/etc playing it
Jul 20 04:46:11 2016 <wrtlprnft> It requests every permission android has
Jul 20 04:46:22 2016 <Lucifer_arma> heh, if it can be cleanly uninstalled..... (but the "cleanly" part is the rub)
Jul 20 04:46:36 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I just said I was tempted, not that I'm actually going to do it
Jul 20 04:46:48 2016 <Lucifer_arma> especially since you say it requests every damn permission
Jul 20 04:47:01 2016 <Lucifer_arma> that's a red flag. Nothing except the OS itself needs every damn permission.
Jul 20 04:47:33 2016 <Z-Man> My own phone can't run PokeGo, so I sent a remote install order of it to my wife's phone.
Jul 20 04:47:39 2016 <Lucifer_arma> hell, I'm already sick of installing apps that request permissions they don't need just so they can feed me ads I don't want to see
Jul 20 04:47:40 2016 <wrtlprnft> Probably after it sends all your contacts to nintendo, it will uninstall cleanly
Jul 20 04:47:42 2016 <Z-Man> She won't let me play it, though :(
Jul 20 04:47:59 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: haha, you're pok blocked
Jul 20 04:49:01 2016 <wrtlprnft> Heh, maybe i could get my gf to install it
Jul 20 04:49:21 2016 <Lucifer_arma> my wife won't. If I asked her, she'd laugh in my face. She's so awesome.
Jul 20 04:49:25 2016 <wrtlprnft> She already has an iphone, so what does she care? :-D
Jul 20 04:49:39 2016 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, she already doesn't care about her rights as a person if she bought that shit
Jul 20 04:50:04 2016 * Lucifer_arma thinks that smartphones has made him simultaneously more pragmatic and more idealistic.
Jul 20 04:50:12 2016 <Lucifer_arma> *have
Jul 20 04:51:23 2016 <Lucifer_arma> but man, the ads. Why? Why does my flashlight advertise <some random shit>? WHY?
Jul 20 04:51:42 2016 <Lucifer_arma> (Ok, I'm now running a more recent android that has a built-in flashlight, but you get the idea)
Jul 20 04:52:22 2016 <wrtlprnft> Generally, one can live pretty well with only apps from f-droid
Jul 20 04:52:51 2016 <Lucifer_arma> f-droid?
Jul 20 04:53:20 2016 <wrtlprnft> App store for free/libre/whatever apps
Jul 20 04:55:25 2016 <wrtlprnft> Also, their website lets you download the .apk files, you don't have to install their store app if you don't want to
Jul 20 04:56:30 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I just googled it and peed, and only one of those things are you interested in
Jul 20 04:56:47 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm installing that shit, because I'm sick of trying to find the Free stuff on google play
Jul 20 04:56:50 2016 <Lucifer_arma> thank you
Jul 20 04:56:56 2016 <wrtlprnft> yw :-)
Jul 20 04:58:31 2016 * wrtlprnft hopes there wasn't a strong causality between those things, and if there was, that you at least were prepared for the second thing
Jul 20 04:59:03 2016 <Lucifer_arma> no, beer. The googling it part was because I realized right after I asked that I can google it.
Jul 20 04:59:19 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I felt dumb even asking at that point. I must be getting old. I even bought reading glasses!
Jul 20 04:59:40 2016 <wrtlprnft> Remember: don't drink and root!
Jul 20 04:59:46 2016 <Lucifer_arma> (to read the really tiny text on computer components. My wife's still pissed at me, because she's half-blind without her contacts)
Jul 20 05:00:23 2016 <Lucifer_arma> (in fact, her contacts don't correct her vision to be as good as my vision, even with it starting to decrease in quality as it is now)
Jul 20 05:00:39 2016 <Lucifer_arma> (that explains why she thinks I'm so hot. I hope her vision never gets corrected!)
Jul 20 05:01:37 2016 <wrtlprnft> Then lets hope your looks don't degrade as quickly as her vision
Jul 20 05:01:49 2016 <wrtlprnft> *'
Jul 20 05:02:17 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I will hope that. However, it's worth pointing out that people are now consistently estimating my age as younger than I am. I guess that means I'm aging well.
Jul 20 05:02:37 2016 <Lucifer_arma> of course, I'm only 41 (soon to turn that magical age), so it's not like I'm all that old or anything
Jul 20 05:03:04 2016 <Lucifer_arma> also: luke-jr: ping
Jul 20 05:03:25 2016 <Lucifer_arma> If he didn't mute his shit, I've got some payback for him, heh
Jul 20 05:03:27 2016 <wrtlprnft> ljrbot: ping
Jul 20 05:03:27 2016 <ljrbot> pong
Jul 20 05:03:50 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I got the MAME rom for pong, and it runs like crap. Can't even play it.
Jul 20 05:04:03 2016 <Lucifer_arma> on the flip side, I played MULE with my kids and we had a bitchin' time.
Jul 20 05:04:16 2016 <Lucifer_arma> <3 8-bit games
Jul 20 05:06:09 2016 <Lucifer_arma> that reminds me, among my current projects, I need to change all the emulators to use the same keybinds for the same functions
Jul 20 05:06:46 2016 * Lucifer_arma is sorta working on a linux distribution that will server as a gaming console, using emulators to play the retro games. Like SteamOS, but better.
Jul 20 07:17:13 2016 * ct|kyle (~kyle@184.18.134.169) has joined #armagetron
Jul 20 07:49:07 2016 <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: You may want to have a look at RetroPIE, looks like it's what you want for the pi. It's not really a distribution, though, just one gigantic script installing tons of stuff from regular debian sources. May work on regular PCs, too, dunno.
Jul 20 12:47:14 2016 <luke-jr> [08:45:49] <Lucifer_arma> I realize there are huge privacy issues, and people have been robbed/raped/etc playing it <-- I wouldn't be surprised if it's because they put the PGO locations at the same places as Ingress locations ;)
Jul 20 12:47:20 2016 <luke-jr> wrtlprnft: not every permission
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jul 23 23:13:28 2016
Log from 2016-07-23:
Jul 23 23:13:28 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 23 23:13:28 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 23 23:13:28 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
Jul 23 23:48:15 2016 * ct|kyle has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
Log from 2016-07-24:
Jul 24 00:48:18 2016 <Lucifer_arma> sinewav: made it to the ER, we all talked about exactly what the consequences of her running away would be long-term (basically, if she does it again, this bridge is burned)
Jul 24 00:48:41 2016 <Lucifer_arma> there will be a reconciliation possibility at some point in the future, but it could take a few years before I'll be willing to reconcile
Jul 24 00:49:21 2016 <Lucifer_arma> anyway, the social worker decided to discharge her to me and send us home. She swore up and down that she was going to bolt at the first opportunity, so I got her to talk to us before leaving, making sure she understood what she was doing.
Jul 24 00:49:51 2016 <Lucifer_arma> after she demonstrated that she didn't know what she was doing, she paid lip service to understanding the big FUCK YOU that running away from your family actually is (as opposed to actually moving out)
Jul 24 00:49:58 2016 <Lucifer_arma> she bolted again
Jul 24 00:50:07 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm waiting for a cop so I can file a report of her as a runaway
Jul 24 00:50:38 2016 <Lucifer_arma> at that time, because of her age, even if the cops pick her up, I can't be forced to take her back. And if she's just going to bolt again, why should I?
Jul 24 03:00:23 2016 <sinewav> What a terrible situation. I hope one of you discovers a positive solution to this mess. If she can find somewhere to feel safe and comfortable I'm sure she will gain a better perspective, and hopefully it involves keeping you in her life. :/
Jul 24 03:46:54 2016 * sinewav has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
Jul 24 04:02:24 2016 <Lucifer_arma> ]later tell sinewav she went to a friend's house. She thinks she'll be able to not kill herself while she's there. If she made it there (I have no confirmation on that), then she's safe.
Jul 24 04:02:24 2016 <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: The operation succeeded.
Jul 24 04:03:22 2016 <Lucifer_arma> ]later tell sinewav for me, the positive solution to this mess is letting her go. It's really hard, and I'm tearing up while writing this, but that's what I have to do. What if she's right? What if she's only 40% right? She can make this work!
Jul 24 04:03:22 2016 <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: The operation succeeded.
Jul 24 04:03:42 2016 * G5 (~g5@p2003006A6A7BA200947EFFB93E674A14.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #armagetron
Jul 24 04:04:00 2016 <Lucifer_arma> ]later tell sinewav she's my kid, she can make this work. I have to give her the freedom to do that. I'm all about freedom, you know that probably more than anybody else around here.
Jul 24 04:04:01 2016 <ljrbot> Lucifer_arma: The operation succeeded.
Jul 24 04:04:57 2016 <Lucifer_arma> dammit, I knew this was going to happen.
Jul 24 04:05:24 2016 <Lucifer_arma> but honestly, what does the GPL mean? It means certain things when applied to software, but when it's your life, what does it mean? It's not meant to apply to life, mind you....
Jul 24 04:06:16 2016 <Lucifer_arma> but freedom is for everybody. People in authority positions have to respect that, they have to behave accordingly.
Jul 24 04:06:24 2016 <Lucifer_arma> And there are no exceptions.
Jul 24 04:07:42 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Every instinct tells me that I have to get my kid and make sure she's safe. Except for one instinct. That freedom thing. I have to let her have that freedom. If not, then who the fuck am I?
Jul 24 04:08:16 2016 <Lucifer_arma> ok, I'm going away. Might even close the irc client. I've wasted enough of other people's time on drama they probably don't care about.
Jul 24 04:09:38 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm not in danger, mind you. I'm not suicidal. I'm quite emotional. I'd really appreciate it if someone's reading this and is willing to talk to me. No obligation, of course.
Jul 24 04:15:05 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: guru3, MrBougo, luke-jr (maybe), wrtlprnft, um, ping? Yeah, there's a cry for help here, but if you don't/can't respond, don't sweat it. I'm not in danger.
Jul 24 04:31:17 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Also, in case anybody's curious, I logged out of facebook on my laptop (which is what I'm using), and I had my wife take my phone and plug it in, so I won't go making potentially irrevocable social media posts.
Jul 24 04:32:19 2016 <Lucifer_arma> so this is it, and I'm only going to respond to forum posts, not make new ones (if I get drunk enough, please just delete it, whatever it says). I'm supposed to be in a chroot environment with few permissions right now.
Jul 24 04:33:37 2016 <Lucifer_arma> we took advance steps, but they're not perfect. There are holes in the steps we took, is what I'm saying. And now I'll shut up until someone uses my name and causes me to be highlighted.
Jul 24 05:02:53 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Ok, for anybody who's paying attentions and actually cares (weeeee persecution complex!), I'm pretty ok now. I was never a suicide risk, and I'm definitely not one now. I' d still like to talk to someone, but as far as emotional crises are concerned, I think I'm past that. I'd still love to talk to someone, and I ain't gonna lie about that.
Jul 24 05:04:54 2016 <Lucifer_arma> but I'm otherwise ok. I feel like I should say something so that nobody worries unnecessarily. Trust me, If I really needed help to stop me from being suicidal, or just needed help, I'd reach out. I have a phone, there are people I can call in the event nobody answers here. I'll do that, if I need to. (I'll also wake up my wife and talk to her, that'd be more productive)
Jul 24 05:05:53 2016 <Lucifer_arma> So there has been no time when I thought someone here should talk to me, is what I'm saying. I'm talking to an empty channel, so I'm probably talking more than I should.
Jul 24 05:06:32 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I will continue to be awake for awhile, and if someone wants to talk to me, highlight my name and I'll answer as quickly as I can, and we can talk.
Jul 24 05:37:53 2016 <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: I'm here!
Jul 24 05:38:27 2016 <Z-Man> And I thought I had a rough morning when my wife said she's serious about moving to Portugal.
Jul 24 05:39:04 2016 <Lucifer_arma> oh shit. SO I've got my thing, and you're looking at a divorce. (or moving to portugal, which would probably be AWESOME)
Jul 24 05:39:28 2016 <Z-Man> Aren't the police supposed to respond to any missing person reports after said person is gone for 24 hours? Police dramas are what I learn those things from.
Jul 24 05:39:46 2016 <Lucifer_arma> she's 17, the police dramas lied to you
Jul 24 05:39:55 2016 <Z-Man> Probably moving. Or living half separate.
Jul 24 05:40:11 2016 <Lucifer_arma> she can't be coerced into coming here, and I don't want the people she's with being put in jail
Jul 24 05:40:27 2016 <Z-Man> Or waiting until she changes her mind again. She wanted to move to the North last year, wore off after a couple of months.
Jul 24 05:40:37 2016 <Lucifer_arma> face it, on some level, she might be right and I might be wrong, and i Have to give her the freedom to figure that out
Jul 24 05:40:48 2016 <Z-Man> So you can't declare her missing because she isn't really. Got it.
Jul 24 05:41:08 2016 <Lucifer_arma> she's from Portugal, wanting to go home is a different urge than randomlyl wanting to live somwhere else
Jul 24 05:41:15 2016 <Lucifer_arma> please excuse the typos
Jul 24 05:41:23 2016 <Z-Man> np
Jul 24 05:41:31 2016 <Lucifer_arma> but if she wants to come live in Texas, you take her up and get the fuck over here.
Jul 24 05:41:50 2016 <Lucifer_arma> That's an order (you probably won't follow, damn that freedom thing!)
Jul 24 05:42:29 2016 <Z-Man> Yeah, I guess you need to give her the freedom. You gave her all the guidance she could possibly need, I bet.
Jul 24 05:42:48 2016 <Z-Man> It ALWAYS feels too early to let the kids go.
Jul 24 05:42:58 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I filed a runaway report, which should free eme from liability if she does property damage. Other than that, I'm on the hook until she turns 18 (4.5 months from now)
Jul 24 05:43:37 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I also made sure when I filed the report to say that I don't want her brought back here against her will, and I definitely don't want anybody going to jail for helping her
Jul 24 05:43:50 2016 <Z-Man> Would you be required by law to keep her in your house?
Jul 24 05:43:56 2016 <Lucifer_arma> it's Texas, there's a grey area there, and the report I made matters in how shit happens
Jul 24 05:44:08 2016 <Lucifer_arma> no, she's a runaway, I don't have to take her back.
Jul 24 05:44:30 2016 <Lucifer_arma> but the person she's staying with can go to jail, regardless of whether or not I take her back
Jul 24 05:44:56 2016 <Lucifer_arma> for the foreseeable future, I'm not taking her back. She made her decision, I'm going to enforce it. Basic parenting.
Jul 24 05:45:29 2016 <Z-Man> So legally, the safe thing for everyone but you and your wife and possibly ex-wife would be to deny her shelter?
Jul 24 05:45:53 2016 <Lucifer_arma> You know, Europe is so open you should be able to live in Portugal wth your wife and see your family and do all that stuff....
Jul 24 05:46:06 2016 <Lucifer_arma> no, it's complicated
Jul 24 05:46:29 2016 <Z-Man> Yeah, from a buereaucratic perspective, the move is a non-issue as long as we're all still EU.
Jul 24 05:46:46 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I made a report that explicitly stated that I don't want people to help her to be prosecuted. THhe state follows that recommendation.
Jul 24 05:47:24 2016 <Lucifer_arma> She can go to her mom, and if her mom takes her, she can go live there. If her mom says no, she suffers no adverse legal effects.
Jul 24 05:47:40 2016 <Z-Man> Then I think you did all you could do.
Jul 24 05:47:42 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm the only one at serious risk of being prosecuted if I won't take her back.
Jul 24 05:48:19 2016 <Lucifer_arma> She gets her chance. I appreciate that you say I did all I can do.
Jul 24 05:48:58 2016 <Lucifer_arma> You, of all damned people, YOU know how I feel about freedom and individual liberty. We've had our own drag-out smack-down arguments on that subject.
Jul 24 05:49:18 2016 <Z-Man> We sure had.
Jul 24 05:49:32 2016 <Lucifer_arma> We might still disagree. But I have to apply what I believe.
Jul 24 05:49:47 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm worried about her, I really am. That's probably no surprise.
Jul 24 05:50:46 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I have to give her the freedom. I can't not do that. I'm NOT BUILT THAT WAY. I have to give her that freedom.
Jul 24 05:51:03 2016 <Lucifer_arma> But I'm a father, I'm built like a father, and dammit, I'm worried sick about her.
Jul 24 05:51:36 2016 <Lucifer_arma> damn, I'm crying again. Figures.
Jul 24 05:51:38 2016 <Z-Man> Well, the law here is, IIRC, that if a 16 yo wants to live away from their parents, they can. All age limits are culture dependant and flexible. So the only reason not to give her her freedom, the age thing, is irrelevant at that margin.
Jul 24 05:52:32 2016 <Lucifer_arma> it's worth pointing out that this isn't a legal issue. The law says I can't force her to come back, but I can be hell on whoever took her in (and I won't! Freedom!)
Jul 24 05:52:51 2016 <Z-Man> Of course you're worried. You're supposed to be. I'm worried too and I don't even know how she looks.
Jul 24 05:54:33 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I have to give her the space. I'm not looking for validation on that, but it's nice to have it. You know damned well that I'm not who I think I am if I can't do this.
Jul 24 05:55:08 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I tell people in arma all the time "Take care of it", and "smegheads are part of the game", and "Serer operators are on their own". This isn't different.
Jul 24 05:55:32 2016 <Lucifer_arma> the only thing making this different is that this is my own kid. ANd I've been asked "If this was your own kid, would you.....?"
Jul 24 05:55:58 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Well, for all the hypothetical times I've answered, now it's happening in real life, and the answer is that I choose her freedom.
Jul 24 05:56:27 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I don't give a rat's ass what you do with your server. I choose my kid's freedom.
Jul 24 05:56:46 2016 <Z-Man> At least she did not jump into the bear cage at the zoo.
Jul 24 05:57:14 2016 <Lucifer_arma> that's a good thing. Definitely better she didn't face the penguins.
Jul 24 05:58:56 2016 <Lucifer_arma> wait, bad joke here, she faced the penguin when she talked to me.
Jul 24 05:59:00 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Like I said, bad joke.
Jul 24 05:59:07 2016 <Z-Man> She'll be all right. Of course, she'll have her struggles, but with every day she is basically all right, you'll worry less.
Jul 24 05:59:44 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I did tell her that if she walked out that door, she's burned this bridge. She's burned other bridges, and tried to explain why that was ok.
Jul 24 05:59:49 2016 <Z-Man> Err, I don't get it... is facing the penguin some figure of speech?
Jul 24 06:00:04 2016 <Lucifer_arma> So I made sure she understood exactly what she was doing, and that it was her doing.
Jul 24 06:00:28 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Yes, facing the penguin, the Penguin is the Linux Mascot, I'm a Linux shill, yeah, that.
Jul 24 06:00:39 2016 <Z-Man> ah,
Jul 24 06:02:39 2016 <Z-Man> Hmm. People in general and kids especially, even if you tell them precisely what the consequences of their actions will be, sometimes still act impulsively without really considering the consequences.
Jul 24 06:03:11 2016 <Z-Man> Just something to keep in mind in case she does come back in a couple of days after whatever drove her colled off.
Jul 24 06:05:29 2016 <Z-Man> Oh, and you probably should try and get some sleep.
Jul 24 06:05:46 2016 <Z-Man> Z-Girl and Z-Wife send all the best wishes, too, and hope everything is well.
Jul 24 06:06:30 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I"m not drunk enough to go to bed. You understand that after the night's drama, I made it a goal to get drunk. I have more....
Jul 24 06:07:05 2016 <Lucifer_arma> she didn't act impulsively. I had her sit down and we talked about exactly what she was saying if/when she ran away.
Jul 24 06:07:10 2016 <Z-Man> I would not usually say that, but yeah, getting drunk does not sound like the worst idea.
Jul 24 06:07:30 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I opened the door for her and let her go. I'm a free software junkiie.
Jul 24 06:08:12 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Anyway, we had a talk, and the only reason we were able to have the talk is because I promised her I'd let her go if she intended to leave, and she trusted me. I didn't betray that trust.
Jul 24 06:09:08 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Considering the cirumstances, if she does want to come back in a (currently undetermined) period of time, i will actually take her back
Jul 24 06:10:21 2016 <Lucifer_arma> she only gets one chance at it. She's theoretically used up that chance, but because the ER she went to would only discharge her to me, she gets a little bit of a gain
Jul 24 06:10:50 2016 * theocrite (~Jean-Mari@creteil-equinoxe.fr) has joined #armagetron
Jul 24 06:10:51 2016 <Lucifer_arma> not that I told her. I won't be the parent of a chronic runaway. If you runaway from my home, you're on your own.
Jul 24 06:11:24 2016 <Lucifer_arma> That's a deliberate decision you made, and I don't care how impulsive you may have felt. You runaway, you're on your own.
Jul 24 06:12:13 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I won't block you from anything, I won't be that asshole. If you're under 18, I will show up and give copies of the documents you need to get a job. I'll make sure you're enrolled in High School so you can get your education.
Jul 24 06:12:21 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I won't stand in your way. I just won't.
Jul 24 06:12:37 2016 <Z-Man> Best you can do, really.
Jul 24 06:13:52 2016 <Lucifer_arma> she'll never appreciate me. Period. She won't appreciate what I did for her while she was here, and she definitely won't appreciate how I will help her when she's not here.
Jul 24 06:14:34 2016 <Lucifer_arma> but becoming a parent isn't about getting appreciation from your kid. It's not about that at all. You do what is right for your kid, and that's what becoming a parent is all about.
Jul 24 06:14:56 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Exactly what that means can vary quite a bit, and there's no hard standard on what's right for the kid.
Jul 24 06:15:18 2016 <Lucifer_arma> But it's not about getting appreciation.
Jul 24 06:16:02 2016 <Lucifer_arma> kindof like developing arma. We're not in it for appreciation. It's nice when we get it (and we get it often), but it's not why we do it.
Jul 24 06:17:34 2016 <Lucifer_arma> So, for me, at my kid's age and with the choices she's made, I'll have to continue to support her from the shadows. That's what I can do.
Jul 24 06:18:12 2016 <Z-Man> Heh, now I imagine you as Bat-Dad.
Jul 24 06:18:27 2016 <Lucifer_arma> The step-daughter has said straight out that she loves the deal she has here. Do one chore a day and she gets all sorts of free shit. And until she finishes high school, that's it.
Jul 24 06:18:32 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Bat-Dad?
Jul 24 06:18:48 2016 <Z-Man> Batman. As a dad.
Jul 24 06:18:55 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'll raise up the bat signal and expect her to answer it and beat the bad guy?
Jul 24 06:19:26 2016 <Lucifer_arma> oh wait, you're under the misconception that Bruce Wayne ever got laid, aren't you?
Jul 24 06:19:53 2016 <Z-Man> Well, no :)
Jul 24 06:20:28 2016 <Z-Man> Though apparently, he did bang catwoman in at least one terrible Frank Miller comic.
Jul 24 06:20:44 2016 * Z-Man does not read comics, but watches Linkara's riffs on them
Jul 24 06:21:06 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I don't read comics, I read um, there's a website that's all about fandom ( I hate that I've used that word)
Jul 24 06:21:49 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I tried reading comics when I was a teenager. I really tried, I wanted to read them and love them, so I gave them a serious honest try. I hated them.
Jul 24 06:22:32 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I don't currently hate them for dumb reasons like "only nerds read them" or anything stupid like that. I respect peple who enjoy that art form. Well, I respect them enjoying the art form, at least. They can be assholes.
Jul 24 06:22:39 2016 <Z-Man> My wife's dad had a collection of really weird Belgian ones. I should claim them someday.
Jul 24 06:23:58 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Not Portuguese? Or at least broken Spanish? (Your wife can slap me for that one, I'm giving her permission)
Jul 24 06:24:40 2016 <Z-Man> Oh, I don't know which language they're printed in. Could be either French or Portuguese.
Jul 24 06:26:07 2016 <Lucifer_arma> You know, there's a way to use the umulators to play a network game
Jul 24 06:26:18 2016 <Z-Man> And heh, all groups have their fair share of assholes. Doesn't matter what non-asshole related pre-filters you apply.
Jul 24 06:26:19 2016 <Lucifer_arma> i short, we could muster up a MULE game here
Jul 24 06:26:46 2016 <Lucifer_arma> yese, I know that assholes exist. I prove that statement pretty often, doncha know. ;)
Jul 24 06:27:22 2016 <Z-Man> Sadly, I'm on the old half-broken laptop that probably would completely melt if I even think about running any game.
Jul 24 06:27:32 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I also show that people who are assholes aren't 2 dimensional. They might actually hae other thoughts and feelings and shit.
Jul 24 06:27:52 2016 <Lucifer_arma> 8 bit game. You'd onlyl have to run the emulator.
Jul 24 06:28:15 2016 <Z-Man> (The tablet is still displayless. I wanted to break it apart today and reassemble it. That's about all I know how to do, sometimes.)
Jul 24 06:28:19 2016 <Lucifer_arma> but, I'm not asking you to play it NOW, I'm asking you to take a few minutes at some pint in the near future and be ready to play it
Jul 24 06:29:01 2016 <Z-Man> Ah, I'll try. In theory, I have the raspi prepared. I just don't know how well.
Jul 24 06:29:02 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Because it would be a SHIT-TON of fun for you and me and my two boys to all play this game together.
Jul 24 06:29:55 2016 <Z-Man> I think I only played two round of it so far.
Jul 24 06:30:10 2016 <Lucifer_arma> of MULE?
Jul 24 06:30:11 2016 <Z-Man> Like, rounds in the game. Not complete games.
Jul 24 06:30:14 2016 <Z-Man> yeah.
Jul 24 06:30:37 2016 <Z-Man> Which 8-bit system are you using?
Jul 24 06:30:40 2016 <Lucifer_arma> we need to work on that. Also, how the fuck did you grow up without playing it?
Jul 24 06:30:52 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm using the C64 emulator for it
Jul 24 06:31:05 2016 <Lucifer_arma> it was written for like the Apple IIE or something like that.
Jul 24 06:31:19 2016 <Z-Man> I only played a couple of sessons on friends C64s; I myself got straight to the Amiga 500.
Jul 24 06:31:45 2016 <Lucifer_arma> ironically, the lead developer transitioned from male to female, and then didn't like that. She (originallyl he, as credited in the game) ultiamtely died of lung cancer
Jul 24 06:31:59 2016 <Lucifer_arma> you were an amiga nerd? Really?
Jul 24 06:32:04 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I was totally amiga!
Jul 24 06:32:10 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I got Ebonstar!
Jul 24 06:32:18 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Shadow of the Beast!
Jul 24 06:32:23 2016 <Z-Man> Yep. Still got one.
Jul 24 06:32:28 2016 <Lucifer_arma> man, that was such a fucking awesome compute
Jul 24 06:32:35 2016 <Lucifer_arma> you have one, in real life? No emulator?
Jul 24 06:32:40 2016 <Z-Man> Yep.
Jul 24 06:32:48 2016 <Z-Man> No monitor to attach it to, though.
Jul 24 06:33:10 2016 <Z-Man> I think I could now sneak it under the living room TV again.
Jul 24 06:33:11 2016 <Lucifer_arma> A500 or something with the AGA?
Jul 24 06:33:30 2016 <Z-Man> Nah, the old A500 with the 500kb memory expansion.
Jul 24 06:33:40 2016 * Z-Man almost wrote 500Mb there, hah
Jul 24 06:33:48 2016 <Lucifer_arma> So Workbench 1.3
Jul 24 06:33:53 2016 <Z-Man> yes.
Jul 24 06:33:55 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Kickstart 1.3, that's what I meant
Jul 24 06:34:04 2016 <Z-Man> well, both.
Jul 24 06:34:14 2016 <Z-Man> The one I had as a kid was 1.2.
Jul 24 06:34:24 2016 <Z-Man> I can't remember the difference any more :/
Jul 24 06:34:26 2016 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, I used the shit out of workbench 1.3. I learned how to program in C with it.
Jul 24 06:34:46 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I don't remember the difference either. I think it had something to do with clicking on drawers.
Jul 24 06:35:25 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I don't really remember. We had 1.2, then we upgraded to 1.3 (my dad was an electrical engineer in the air force, so he said we needed to upgrade and we......)
Jul 24 06:35:43 2016 <Lucifer_arma> we didn't upgrade kickstart, because that was ROM
Jul 24 06:36:20 2016 <Z-Man> It was socketed, so you could even updgade that. Was expensive, though.
Jul 24 06:36:30 2016 <Lucifer_arma> we dodm
Jul 24 06:36:33 2016 <Lucifer_arma> er
Jul 24 06:36:41 2016 <Lucifer_arma> (fingers where they should be)
Jul 24 06:36:52 2016 <Lucifer_arma> we didn't upgrade that. We upgraded RAM, and that was it.
Jul 24 06:37:15 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I've had to manuall declare kickstart 1.3 for games I want to emulate
Jul 24 06:37:50 2016 <Lucifer_arma> My youngest, Julian, goddamn he's an awesome kid who loves video games (he' been playing arma). He wants to play Ebonstar with me.
Jul 24 06:37:59 2016 <Z-Man> Heh, we had this one game I love for no good reason except that it was one of the first we had, 'Fairy Tale Adventure'
Jul 24 06:38:15 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Now, keep in mind that after I have defeated him in one 8-bit game after another, he still wants to play with me.
Jul 24 06:38:15 2016 <Z-Man> The memory upgrade broke it, so we had to take it out every time
Jul 24 06:38:41 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Fairy Tale Adventure? Man, that game was a ripoff
Jul 24 06:38:49 2016 <Lucifer_arma> it was a shitty DOS port of the game
Jul 24 06:39:11 2016 <Lucifer_arma> We, um, *cough* acquired our own copy and played it.
Jul 24 06:39:47 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Look, among the reasons I love free software, I don't have to pirate software. That matters to me. It also wasn't always the situation.
Jul 24 06:40:06 2016 <Z-Man> Yeah, that's one thing to love.
Jul 24 06:40:27 2016 <Z-Man> Gotta run now, we need to go swimming.
Jul 24 06:40:45 2016 <Z-Man> quasselcore will keep listening to you :)
Jul 24 06:40:59 2016 <Lucifer_arma> So that. Thank you for being here for me. The conversation may not have been what you thought, but fuck it.
Jul 24 06:41:05 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Thank you.
Jul 24 06:41:18 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Now, go do your swimming thing.
Jul 24 06:42:22 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Also, now I know you're an old Amiga person, and that explains a lot. You have no idea how much I learned from that, other than what you'e learned about me because you just learned this aaabout me.
Jul 24 06:48:55 2016 <Z-Man> Too meta! :) cya.
Jul 24 06:51:04 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: Enjoy your day. I need to avoid certain levels of contact, so if I try to talk to you further today, you should probably ignore me. You know, emotions and shit.
Jul 24 06:51:12 2016 <guru3> Lucifer_arma: not sure what to say other than sounds like that sucks all around :/
Jul 24 06:51:20 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Enjoy your day, do what your'e going to do, etc.
Jul 24 06:53:42 2016 <Lucifer_arma> guru3: yes, ti sucks all around. In my commeent, I was fishing for emotional support that I really needed at that time. Um, I think we're past that time. So, I'm past the emotional crisis I was personally in.
Jul 24 06:54:04 2016 <Lucifer_arma> (I made sure to make statements about being suicidal and my relative safety)
Jul 24 06:54:43 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I can talk, I want to talk, I want to hear what you have to say.
Jul 24 06:54:47 2016 <guru3> I'm glad you're sounding (reading? writing?) better
Jul 24 06:55:07 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm a bit drunker, so I should be fucking up what I write a lot more
Jul 24 06:55:22 2016 <guru3> that's alright
Jul 24 06:55:33 2016 <guru3> it's the internet after all
Jul 24 06:56:16 2016 <guru3> reading the many other posts/articles of far, far less articulate people trains one to ignore the little things
Jul 24 06:56:30 2016 <guru3> which makes purposefully trying to write good stuff very difficult :/
Jul 24 06:57:17 2016 <Lucifer_arma> you don't have tp write anything in particular. IN fact, if you don't feel qualfiied, you can just say so. I won't judge you. I promise. I love you, I won't judge you.
Jul 24 06:57:42 2016 <Lucifer_arma> however.....
Jul 24 06:58:09 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I think you do have something to offer. You still have the option to bail. You always have that choce.
Jul 24 06:58:11 2016 <Lucifer_arma> *choice*
Jul 24 06:58:53 2016 <Lucifer_arma> So, your call on what we talk about, how deep we talk, blah.
Jul 24 06:59:09 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Keep in mind that I've gone in depth with several other people
Jul 24 06:59:43 2016 <guru3> I'm not particularly qualified to comment on your situation on the basis that I'm not a parent and have no younger syblings, and when I was a teenager was not that sort of kid
Jul 24 06:59:58 2016 <guru3> but I can just talk about random stuff if you'd like to have a random conversation
Jul 24 06:59:59 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm out of crisis, and I'm back to the ruthless Lucifer you expext me to be
Jul 24 07:00:44 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm ok. I appreciate that you're willing to be there and say something. I really appreciate that.
Jul 24 07:01:05 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm out of crisis, and you don't need to hang around and take care of me. I'm out of crisis.
Jul 24 07:02:02 2016 <guru3> right-o
Jul 24 07:02:12 2016 <Lucifer_arma> And no, if you walk away from here figurig I'm not in crisis, I will NOT turn around and kill myself. You're safe to walk away.
Jul 24 07:02:23 2016 <guru3> well, I was planning to be sat in front of my PC for the next few hours regardless
Jul 24 07:02:43 2016 <guru3> gargh
Jul 24 07:02:46 2016 <guru3> things are hard to write
Jul 24 07:02:58 2016 <guru3> I'm happy to leave you alone or talk as you wish, and I'm here if needed
Jul 24 07:02:59 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm sure we can do something if we want to, except I'm near pass-out drunk.
Jul 24 07:03:36 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm glad you're here, and I knew that you were here a little while ago when you said "Hey, I'm here!"
Jul 24 07:03:58 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I appreciate that. That was why I made a point of saying I'm noto in crisis.
Jul 24 07:04:24 2016 <guru3> you're good like that
Jul 24 07:04:53 2016 <Lucifer_arma> So, long story short, I'm a bit drunk, I've had a LOT of drama happen today (my kid ran away), and I'm probably not going to be able to go into detail because I'll be passing out soon
Jul 24 07:05:20 2016 <guru3> I back read a good chunk before I replied, so don't sweat the details
Jul 24 07:05:59 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I reached out for help here, and I got Z-man, and we determined that he used to use a 16-bit computer that happened to be a commodore amiga 500, and that explains alot of things that I won't go into now.
Jul 24 07:06:24 2016 <guru3> the 8-bit and 16-bit stuff was sadly a bit before my time
Jul 24 07:06:30 2016 <guru3> which often really annoys me
Jul 24 07:06:36 2016 <guru3> because it's all a lot of fun
Jul 24 07:07:12 2016 <Lucifer_arma> good games, and your age doesn't matter. My 12-yo (who hasn't run away) love these games.
Jul 24 07:08:19 2016 <Lucifer_arma> You know, these are all games you'd loe. Get the emulator, let's work out the thing, and play the games.
Jul 24 07:08:25 2016 <guru3> I did have my amiga phase a few years ago
Jul 24 07:09:07 2016 <Lucifer_arma> How is it that Z-man and I both grow up with Amiga 500s, and with the free softare thing, and we get here and YOU don't know any of htis?
Jul 24 07:09:10 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Obiously you do.
Jul 24 07:09:52 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I get that uou're younger than me, but man, you know. But how do we get at that knowledge. How do we make it matter?
Jul 24 07:10:01 2016 <guru3> I was never very heavily invested into it. When it was the real hardware era for that stuff I was just a little bit too young and didn't know where to look.
Jul 24 07:10:33 2016 <guru3> I came on the emulation scene for it a little bit too early, before it was the cool thing to do and that made it technically difficult. I hadn't started using linux as a desktop at that point.
Jul 24 07:11:03 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Ok, I'm getting mystical at this pint, and I'm drunk..... Ok, I'm stippig there
Jul 24 07:11:28 2016 <Lucifer_arma> You were 16 when I met you, and you were using Linux as a desktop
Jul 24 07:11:40 2016 <Lucifer_arma> or you were llying (which is ok, all things considered)
Jul 24 07:11:43 2016 <guru3> Yeah. But my emulator phase was when I was around 12.
Jul 24 07:12:07 2016 <Lucifer_arma> ah, my emulator phase hasn't stoppped
Jul 24 07:12:11 2016 <Lucifer_arma> because it's not a phase
Jul 24 07:12:12 2016 <guru3> I'd only messed with linux a tiny little bit at that point.
Jul 24 07:12:55 2016 <guru3> Maybe I was 13?
Jul 24 07:13:14 2016 <guru3> Maybe 11? Hard to recall. I was loving the shit out of Emerald Mine though.
Jul 24 07:13:20 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I don't know. You were 16 when I met you..
Jul 24 07:13:31 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Emerald Mine was fucking awesome.
Jul 24 07:13:57 2016 <guru3> About the only thing I played on the (emulated) Amiga in the end.
Jul 24 07:14:07 2016 <guru3> But I spent a lot of hours on it.
Jul 24 07:14:36 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Mind you, in your CAS stuff, you might have admitted to a different age, but I dint' care nor track it. I did what I had to to help you finish, and that's all there is for me.
Jul 24 07:14:54 2016 <Lucifer_arma> there's a Linux game that gives the same game.
Jul 24 07:15:03 2016 <guru3> yeah, that's what I started with.
Jul 24 07:15:18 2016 <guru3> But that just led me to dig deeper.
Jul 24 07:15:34 2016 <guru3> Heh. Pun un-intended.
Jul 24 07:15:41 2016 <Lucifer_arma> And Emerald Mine is a fantastic game
Jul 24 07:15:44 2016 <Lucifer_arma> and fuck your puns
Jul 24 07:15:51 2016 <Lucifer_arma> intended or not
Jul 24 07:16:08 2016 <Lucifer_arma> did you get a chance to play it as a coop game?
Jul 24 07:16:44 2016 <guru3> Yeah. With my sister some.
Jul 24 07:17:23 2016 <guru3> I found the game in my early experiments with RH7, and we played together then some.
Jul 24 07:17:32 2016 <Lucifer_arma> some? I assume she wasn't in any way dedicated to trying to get to the end (which is probably a worthless endeavor)
Jul 24 07:17:46 2016 <guru3> No, she was super into it as well.
Jul 24 07:17:51 2016 <guru3> More than I was at that point.
Jul 24 07:18:09 2016 <guru3> I fell in love with it more later on with the Amiga version, but she destroyed the Linux version.
Jul 24 07:18:16 2016 <Lucifer_arma> ok, then I'll leave it at that
Jul 24 07:18:33 2016 <guru3> At least, to the best of my memory. It was a long time ago now.
Jul 24 07:18:45 2016 <Lucifer_arma> The Linux version is crap, afaics
Jul 24 07:19:05 2016 <Lucifer_arma> nononono, the linux ersion is stil crap. as far as I can see.
Jul 24 07:19:31 2016 <guru3> I think you can load up the original level set somehow?
Jul 24 07:20:00 2016 <guru3> I know it was definetely better back then than it is now.
Jul 24 07:20:03 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I can steal the ROMS, disk images, whatever. I can do that.
Jul 24 07:20:08 2016 <guru3> (the Linux version)
Jul 24 07:20:14 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'm a pirate, btw.
Jul 24 07:20:21 2016 <guru3> Arrrr.
Jul 24 07:20:50 2016 <Lucifer_arma> yeah, when the MPAA or the RIAA raids this project, y'all get to run off and hide
Jul 24 07:21:01 2016 <Lucifer_arma> and you better warn me, because daumn, please, warn me
Jul 24 07:21:10 2016 * guru3 makes a note
Jul 24 07:23:02 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I need to break away. I'm about to drink some more in a way that I just need to get away and cut off contact with the outside world.
Jul 24 07:23:19 2016 <guru3> take care
Jul 24 07:23:40 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I will. You take care as well.
Jul 24 07:24:24 2016 <guru3> thanks
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**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jul 25 19:01:59 2016
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jul 25 19:02:31 2016
Jul 25 19:02:31 2016 * Now talking on #armagetron
Jul 25 19:02:31 2016 * Topic for #armagetron is: http://www.armagetronad.org/ | pastebin: http://armagetron.pastebin.com/ | Tournaments: #armagetron.tourneys | Pickup a game: #armagetron.pickup
Jul 25 19:02:31 2016 * Topic for #armagetron set by guru3 at Wed Apr 22 16:50:50 2015
Jul 25 21:11:55 2016 <Lucifer_arma> so, in VICE, (and Mame, and the other emulators that have done this), when they share the game over the network, are they sharing it thin?
Jul 25 21:12:23 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Like, are they sending just the graphics/sound and receiving keybinds? Or are they sending the results of the simulation they're running so that it can be emulated on the client?
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Log from 2016-07-26:
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Jul 26 05:07:51 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Well, I got a call from a shelter in Killeen. I got a voicemail, asking for my consent for her to stay there. I called back and told them she's a runaway, and basically they won't get my consent, so either they have a way to deal with runaways or they don't.
Jul 26 05:08:43 2016 <Lucifer_arma> But the night person I talked to had no clue what I was talking about, just a log entry, and I had to call his attention to that. So, not terribly organized. Also, he threatened me with CPS several times. I ain't scared. Throw CPS at me.
Jul 26 05:09:25 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Anyway, she's obviously trying to get to a shelter, and she's not going to any of the nearby runaway shelters, and maybe her friend isn't quite so available to take her
Jul 26 05:10:00 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Turns out that if you leave your parents, you're not quite guaranteed anything. Right?
Jul 26 05:36:12 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Maybe I should quit talking about this. I can be quite ruthless, and maybe this is the sort of situation where people'd rather not know I was ruthless.
Jul 26 05:51:05 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Ruthless and vicious, he'll stomp on your face. Deadly, malicious, stay out of his way. He'll rip your eyes out don't you look the wrong way.
Jul 26 05:51:07 2016 <Lucifer_arma> etc.
Jul 26 05:51:18 2016 <Lucifer_arma> 'Cause Sargent D is coming, and you're on his list.
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Jul 26 13:27:48 2016 <Z-Man> OUR MINECRAFT WORLD ON XBOX JUST REPAIRED ITSELF
Jul 26 13:51:50 2016 <Z-Man> Bunnies! And our castle got snowed in.
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Jul 26 15:33:21 2016 <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: What I don't get is why the shelter asked for your consent. Aren't they supposed to, among other things, protect kids from abusive parents? And woudn't contacting the parents in such a case be counterproductive?
Jul 26 15:34:10 2016 <Z-Man> Or is it more of a general homeless shelter?
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Jul 26 15:34:55 2016 <Z-Man> And yeah, running away probably sucks. Where are you going to charge your phone?
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Jul 26 17:13:07 2016 <luke-jr> Z-Man: at the very least, they probably handle kids differently if they don't claim to be abused
Jul 26 17:13:31 2016 <luke-jr> Lucifer_arma: sorry, I missed the background of what's going on.. :x
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Jul 26 20:05:35 2016 <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: I was wondering about that, too. Isn't the whole point of shelters to take in homeless people in general, including runaway teens? Texas law explicitly protects such shelters against prosecution for harboring runaways, so they don't ever need parental consent nor to tell parents when their kid is there
Jul 26 20:06:18 2016 <Lucifer_arma> the idea is that kids who are being abused by their parents (or someone else they live with) *can* run away and get help
Jul 26 20:06:45 2016 <Lucifer_arma> maybe because there's no abuse involved, they want my consent? If that's the case, then I'm glad my kid's not lying about the home situation she ran away from
Jul 26 20:08:14 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I've learned everything I can, short of talking to a lawyer, and at 17, a kid can't be compelled to live with their parents (the law says that kids < 17 hae to live with their legal guardian, not kids <= 17)
Jul 26 20:09:05 2016 <Lucifer_arma> a 17yo *can* consent to medical treatment (as well as consent to sex as an adult, but that's not relevant in this situation), and filing the runaway report removed any legal/procedural requirement for medical providers to notify me about anything
Jul 26 20:09:31 2016 <Lucifer_arma> that runaway report is supposed to give her more rights than a standard 17yo living at home would have, in order to enable her to actually make it on her own
Jul 26 20:10:19 2016 <Lucifer_arma> it still doesn't give her the right to vote, or fully emancipate her and empower her to sign legal contracts, but she's only 4.5 months away from turning 18, when she gets those rights
Jul 26 20:11:20 2016 <Lucifer_arma> at 16, you get the right to work as many hours as you want, but are limited to something like 8am-midnight for when you can work.
Jul 26 20:11:42 2016 <Lucifer_arma> The time requirement is lifted if you're supporting a family, or you get a GED (or manage to graduate from high school early)
Jul 26 20:12:05 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I don't know if it's lifted when you're a runaway, but she can work full-time in the timeslots allowed, so that's really not an issue
Jul 26 20:12:50 2016 <Lucifer_arma> there's also a program offered at the school where if you work full-time, you can get class credit for the job, and the amount of classes you have to actually attend drops
Jul 26 20:13:23 2016 <Lucifer_arma> I'll sign the appropriate consent forms when/if they're presented to me, that's what it means to not stand in her way
Jul 26 20:14:34 2016 <Lucifer_arma> (also, if she wants to drop out and get a GED so she can start working to support herself before she's 18. After she's 18, she doesn't need my consent)
Jul 26 20:15:29 2016 <Lucifer_arma> we're keeping her on our health insurance at least until she's 18, but legally we can carry her until she's 26, I believe
Jul 26 20:45:10 2016 <ct|kyle> Lucifer_arma: 26 is from obamacare, The shelter probably called you as they don't want finatual burden of taking on her when home life was not abbusive
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DISCLAIMER: These logs of public chat may contain some content which may not be appropriate for all audiences. Use at your own risk.
Logs from 2006-2009 pulled from wrtlprnft
Format changes at: 2015-08-25, 2017-02-20, and 2020-03-23. Times (2015 and later) should be Eastern.
• Website was created by nelg
• Design:
» Layout is loosely based on an old design by Durf.
» Icons on the tools page were originally by Royce, new icons added will try to follow some of the design language.
» Various other icon selections include icons from Crystal, crystalsvg, oxygen, and breeze icon themes.
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is a site that has tools, maps, and other various items. It orignally only existed as a server control panel, but I slowly began adding stuff such as a homepage and tools.
Gridder
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