IRCLogs • ArmaNelgTron.tk

Log from 2019-04-01:
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[16:35:51] <Z-Man> Well, it should do better than Amazon's recommendations. Suddenly, they're fulll of romance novels?
[17:01:25] <Z-Man> Then again, I can blame YOU for that. The only non-children book I ever ordered there was yours.
[17:32:19] <Lucifer_arma> hey, my book is NOT a romance novel!
[17:32:43] <Lucifer_arma> speaking of whiches, I realize need to finish my rehab book.  ;)
[17:33:29] <Lucifer_arma> it still needs about half of it edited for content, and then another round of serious content/style editing, and then another round of style editing, then prereading and last style edit
[17:34:04] <Lucifer_arma> but anyway, I saw a headline about AIs discovering new exoplanets, which led to my question :)
[17:34:43] <Lucifer_arma> also, new pet peeve: using the word "lead" as past tense for "lead" instead of "led", which is the actual past tense for "lead"
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Log from 2019-04-02:
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Log from 2019-04-03:
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[19:26:01] <Lucifer_arma> lovely.  I've never had the interest in hot-rodding a car, but now that I'm driving a scooter, I want to hot-rod the shit out of it.
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[23:07:19] <Lucifer_arma> dave@Herman:~$ sober
[23:07:20] <Lucifer_arma> You have been sober for 136 days.
[23:07:28] <Lucifer_arma> <3 Python

Log from 2019-04-04:
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[18:56:50] <Lucifer_arma> what kind of asshole steals mirrors from a scooter?  WTF?
[20:30:09] <Armanelgtron> and why did someone named HenryAcich 's posts from a month ago suddenly come up as unread? and why is he replying to 8+ year old threads
[20:34:59] <Armanelgtron> well, ok, 6+ year old since the newest he replied to is from 2013...
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[21:30:18] <Lucifer_arma> his post is finally showing up because I finally noticed it waiting to be approved ;)
[21:30:36] <Lucifer_arma> I didn't pay attention to where he posted, I only paid attention to whether or not he was a real person
[21:31:05] <Lucifer_arma> seriously, though, why in the fuck would you steal mirrors from a scooter?
[21:31:34] <Lucifer_arma> what possible purpose does that serve?  Probably just some punk kids thinking it's cool to steal something like that
[21:32:17] <Lucifer_arma> they're costing me $20 to replace!  What, did they think I'd look at my bike and be like "Haha, someone stole my mirrors, that's funny.  I wasn't using them anyway, so I'll just keep riding without them.  Ha-ha!"
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Log from 2019-04-05:
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[18:45:15] <Armanelgtron> is there a particular reason menus never got at least primative mouse support?
[18:45:44] <Armanelgtron> I assume it's just something nobody ever did
[20:18:49] <Armanelgtron> oh ye I was also going to ask about network play ... if you remake tron, do you plan on making it backwards/forward compatible with 
[20:20:10] <Armanelgtron> or how are you planning on doing that
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Log from 2019-04-06:
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[12:15:06] <Z-Man> Two reasons: 1) It's work 2) input methods inform the layout. Keyboard input doesn't mind if you have a long, possibly scrolling, menu. Mouse input (the traditional one with a pointer) makes that awkward and you'd rather have everything on one screen with no scrolling.
[12:15:25] <Z-Man> But then with more freedom of item placement.
[12:16:27] <Z-Man> Care needs to be taken. Just look at what Microsoft did when they decided to optimize their desktop OS for touch input and their console UI for Kinect.
[12:18:04] <Z-Man> About compatibility, a full remake would likely not be compatible. A remaster where we keep the core and just build a new presentation around it likely would be compatible.
[12:34:50] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: HenryAcich is a copy/paste bot. First clue: The camelcase name. Second clue: Meticulously filled out profile with real world interests. WHO DOES THAT? Third clue, refering to persons in posts we don't know.
[12:35:22] <Z-Man> And then you google his entire posts in quotes and find this: https://asprunner.com/forums/topic/23199-calendar-template-global-settings/page__p__77568&#entry77568
[12:39:04] <Z-Man> Same as https://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtopic.php?p=306562#p306562 (in Trash)
[12:39:58] <Z-Man> You had me worried there for a bit that I forgot to check the new posts page and let a real user rot in approval hell ;)
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[16:50:48] <Lucifer_arma> ah, clearly I missed an interesting question that I must now divine from Z-man's answer :)
[16:51:38] <Lucifer_arma> one of the advantages with offloading to a serious GUI toolkit like Qt is that it handles the complexities in mouse input vs keyboard input for us.  Without something like that,
[16:52:18] <Lucifer_arma> then in order to enable mouse input for the GUI, we'd have to go with a basic system that can be turned off when playing the game.  Look at TuxRacer for a really good example on why that option sucks a lot.
[16:53:13] <Lucifer_arma> Basically, if we can't offload all the thinking/coding onto someone else who knows 100x more than we do about GUI programming, I'd stick with keyboard input, and I'd add joystick/gamepad support that mimics the keyboard, which you can do easily
[16:54:20] <Lucifer_arma> About compatibility.  :)  I'm all in favor of making any remake backwards compatible in protocol and making it provide the best interpretation of any old settings it can as reasonably as possible
[16:54:46] <Lucifer_arma> but I wouldn't put my heart into it, or hold my breath hoping old clients could connect to a remake and work "just the same as always".
[16:55:09] <Lucifer_arma> think about the two changes in CPU architectures that Macs went through.  That's what we'd be looking at, essentially.
[16:55:46] <Lucifer_arma> For that reason, I'd only frown for a few minutes if we were to do a remake and break all backwards compatibility intentionally, because I'd rather not spend time writing a feature whose sole purpose for existence
[16:56:31] <Lucifer_arma> is to allow people to upgrade more slowly when I could be writing kool nu shtuf, because they'd just turn around and complain about how half-assed the compatibility is anyway, since, on top of that,
[16:56:59] <Lucifer_arma> I also don't want to be painted into a corner because we decided to support older clients and that turned out to dictate new decisions
[16:57:32] <Lucifer_arma> to make a long story short: PyQt+Panda3d = Good.  :)  (No, I still haven't tested that combination to see how workable it is)
[16:58:26] <Lucifer_arma> (Also, I've revised my own thoughts about limiting the server to the python standard library and am onboard with using panda3d or any game engine on the server side, as well, but restricting any other dependencies to the python standard library)
[17:00:13] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: I was suspicious, but for the time I was willing to put in at the time (it was late, I'd already downed my trazadone), it checked out
[17:00:16] <Lucifer_arma> sorry about that ;)
[17:02:49] <Z-Man> Nopro. Most of them bots actually forget to later come back and put the spam in. Unless it's already hidden in their profiles somehow.
[17:12:44] <Lucifer_arma> speaking of remakes, Z-man, are you interested in helping out on my stupid game network library?  ;)
[17:19:32] <Z-Man> Because what I need is another project I can contribute 8 lines of code per year to?
[17:20:08] <Z-Man> Lucifer_arma: Do you have a github page for it already?
[17:36:05] <Z-Man> Interesting. Now, to create a PDF using ImageMagic on my desktop, I need to edit a security policy first.
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Log from 2019-04-07:
[01:24:57] *** Joins: physkets (~physkets@unaffiliated/physkets)
[01:32:29] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: I did, but then Microsoft bought github, and I'm still not trusting.  I'll put it on my todo list to put it on launchpad, because I trust canonical a bit, still, even if Mark Shuttleworth likes to flap his jaw like Elon Musk
[01:36:13] <physkets> Lucifer_arma: not trust MS about what?
[01:36:25] <Lucifer_arma> I just figured out how I broke acme, and have been hitting my head against the wall trying to fix it, when I needed to rethink the design
[01:36:40] <Lucifer_arma> physkets: their attitude about open source software and copyrights and shit
[01:36:59] <Lucifer_arma> for most of my life, they've been the Empire and I've been one of the Rebels
[01:37:01] <physkets> sure, but how does that connect to GitHub? I mean what can they do?
[01:37:18] <physkets> since it is git, one can easily migrate
[01:37:20] <Lucifer_arma> plenty.  A quick change of TOS and they get a closed source license to everything on github
[01:37:25] <physkets> so I think it is safe
[01:37:35] <physkets> No, I think that is just FUD
[01:37:53] <Lucifer_arma> it's how they screwed IBM out of OS/2, so it's not exactly irrational :)
[01:37:57] <physkets> you can't arbitrarily do that if your project already has a license
[01:38:30] <physkets> sure, they may change the default, but as long as you;re careful, I don't think anything can go too wrong
[01:38:30] <Lucifer_arma> sure, but who's got the resources to sue?  Google uses their own project site, and apple hates us still....
[01:38:40] <physkets> Sue? Why sue?
[01:38:52] <physkets> you can continue distribution your software
[01:38:56] <Lucifer_arma> why should I have to be careful in the first place?  *I* put code up there under a specific license
[01:39:08] <physkets> ya, that is all that is required
[01:39:20] <physkets> that is exactly what I mean by careful
[01:39:23] <physkets> giving it a license
[01:39:26] <Lucifer_arma> of course I can, but it defeats the purpose of GPL'ing my software if MS finds a loophole and takes a closed source version of it to do what they want
[01:39:42] <physkets> as I said, FUD
[01:39:45] <Lucifer_arma> or what if they just close it up?  Or fork their own?
[01:39:51] <Lucifer_arma> they have a *history* of doing that kind of shit
[01:39:55] <physkets> sure, they can fork it
[01:39:57] <Lucifer_arma> a long history
[01:40:00] <physkets> GPL allows for that
[01:40:11] <Lucifer_arma> I mean the github site itself.
[01:40:19] <Lucifer_arma> or require payment to continue using it
[01:40:20] <physkets> I don't understand
[01:40:31] <physkets> what does close github mean?
[01:40:42] <physkets> if they close it, then people will go elsewhere
[01:40:46] <physkets> simple
[01:40:49] <Lucifer_arma> shut down the servers that run the github software and not turn them on
[01:40:56] <physkets> okay, so what?
[01:41:06] <Lucifer_arma> so, I don't want to deal with any of their shit
[01:41:20] <Lucifer_arma> that was why I installed Mandrake Linux back in 2001 in the first place
[01:41:29] <physkets> hmmm... i guess our irrational fears are our own
[01:41:42] <Lucifer_arma> it's not irrational if there's a rational and factual basis :)
[01:41:50] <Lucifer_arma> a fear can be rational and unreasonable
[01:42:00] <physkets> you can construct ratinale for any arbitrary argument
[01:42:14] <Lucifer_arma> yes, but I'm not making an arbitrary argument
[01:42:18] <physkets> you are
[01:42:30] <Lucifer_arma> I'm making the "what if MS isn't as nice as they say they are, because they've always been big bullies" argument
[01:42:37] <physkets> and unfortunately, yuo have feelings associated with it,
[01:42:53] <physkets> you won't be capable of distilling a proper argument
[01:42:55] <Lucifer_arma> yes, and they have a *lot* of work to do to gain my trust
[01:42:58] <physkets> so I won't engage
[01:43:10] <Lucifer_arma> they haven't done that work yet
[01:43:15] <physkets> Git as such is trust-less
[01:43:15] <Lucifer_arma> so, I don't want to use github
[01:43:18] <Lucifer_arma> it's very simple
[01:43:23] <physkets> i.e., you don't need to trust anyone
[01:43:39] <physkets> because the full copy resides with everyone who clones it
[01:43:43] <physkets> it was designed like that
[01:43:43] <Lucifer_arma> git can be trust-less, that's fine, but servers owned by microsoft are still servers owned by microsoft
[01:44:03] <physkets> yes, so my point is, that if MS ever dcided to do stupid stuff,
[01:44:08] <physkets> it is very easy to migrate
[01:44:09] <Lucifer_arma> there's an easy way not to get eaten by a bear: don't go into the bear's lair
[01:44:12] <physkets> they ahve no control
[01:44:28] <physkets> But in this case, the bear's lair has a nice community of devs
[01:44:38] <physkets> and the devs have a moble home
[01:44:43] <physkets> that is bear-resistant
[01:44:44] <Lucifer_arma> it doesn't matter how well-decorated the bear's lair is, it's still a bear's lair
[01:44:50] <physkets> and can move whenever they want
[01:45:09] <Lucifer_arma> plenty of homeless people make the same argument, and the cops still regularly harass and beat them
[01:45:27] <physkets> see, now, you;re making pointless arguments
[01:45:35] <physkets> I'm not continuing this
[01:45:43] <physkets> because you can't be objective
[01:45:46] <Lucifer_arma> microsoft has done more than just be a little bit "bad".  This is more like Jeffrey Daumer promising not to drill holes into people's heads anymore, and then inviting you over to his place for dinner.
[01:45:47] <physkets> and that is okay
[01:46:10] <Lucifer_arma> I'm willing to meet microsoft out in public and see what they're doing
[01:46:34] <Lucifer_arma> I'm open to the idea that they're serious about open source development and are going to be a great player in the arena, and I'm looking forward to all of that
[01:47:06] <Lucifer_arma> but I'm still not letting them have my code on their terms, it must be on my terms, and my terms include choosing the servers that I rely on to share it with other developers
[01:49:33] <Lucifer_arma> I trust canonical, because not only have they done a lot of really great things, they've also made a number of mistakes and apologized and so forth.  They're real human beings, and they've always been on our side (even though they pissed people off with their own x.org replacement and systemd and a few other things)
[01:51:18] <Lucifer_arma> and finally, "not being objective" is something you're saying because you are having trouble with my microsoft skepticism.  I'd rather you be more accepting.  ;)
[02:05:59] <physkets> sure, I am being accepting, by not engaging further, eventhough I disagree
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[05:49:12] * Z-Man suspected he should have said GitLab
[05:50:10] <Z-Man> The thing I don't like about github is that their site runs secret, closed source software and does not allow you to export your data.
[05:50:39] <Z-Man> Your code, sure. But issues and all that discussion metadata? Nope.
[05:51:07] <Z-Man> So if they decide to do something silly, you can migrate away, but you still lose stuff.
[05:52:02] <Z-Man> I don't think one minute OS source code on github is at any special risk of being stolen/apropriated by Microsoft. They can already do that no matter where you host it, as long as it is public.
[05:52:05] <physkets> hmm true
[05:52:31] <Z-Man> As a company using a paid, private code repository I'd be a bit worried.
[05:52:32] <physkets> you do loose all the issues & discussions
[05:52:57] <physkets> But I think Gilab also uses a proprietary version on their servers
[05:53:01] <physkets> not the FOSS one
[05:53:12] <physkets> so it isn;t like tha tis any better
[05:53:58] <Z-Man> Philosophically, maybe not. But you can still export all your data.
[05:55:19] <Z-Man> I also think that with Nadella as MS boss, they really try to be good to and with Open Source.
[05:56:01] <Z-Man> They publish a lot of their stuff under OS licenses now, and VS code is quite good. It's probably really great now, I tried it last a year ago or so.
[05:57:01] <Z-Man> C#/.Net is open, too. Of course, they then made the aquisitions so they again own all implementations, but still.
[05:58:10] <Z-Man> I trust Microsoft way more than Google or Apple now.
[05:59:08] <Z-Man> Apple is just a dictator. With Google, you always have to ask "OK, what do YOU get out of that?".
[06:01:45] <Z-Man> MS does screw up every other Windows 10 update, but they seem to listen to developers and you know they make their big money from Office subscriptions and a bit of Windows. The rest of their strategy seems to focus on "how do we make people WANT to work in our ecosystem?"
[07:56:45] <luke-jr> Z-Man: I think there is a way to export issues/etc from GitHub, actually.
[07:57:41] <luke-jr> [05:37:57] <physkets> you can't arbitrarily do that if your project already has a license <-- they certainly can
[07:58:23] <luke-jr> when Google Code was a thing, I noted their ToS required that they get a special license to do whatever they wanted, disregarding cvpyleft terms
[08:00:18] <physkets> hmmm.... I see..
[09:28:15] <Z-Man> luke-jr: oh, you're right, since relatively recently: https://github.blog/2018-12-19-download-your-data/
[09:34:39] <luke-jr> pretty sure there were APIs or something before that too
[09:35:45] <luke-jr> also, that link seems to be personal data, not group data
[09:49:04] <physkets> yeah, okay, I suppose the fear is not unfounded, then.
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[14:07:13] <luke-jr> wow, github's download of my data is 1.2 GB
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Log from 2019-04-08:
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[00:25:52] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: I think you're right about Nadella, and if that's the case, Microsoft is going to move over into the "mostly good" column along with IBM, who also has a bad history
[00:26:26] <Lucifer_arma> For me, Google is still in the "mostly neutral" column because of their solidly good history, but their recent history (last 10 years or so) has moved them into the "slightly bad" part of that column
[00:26:58] <Lucifer_arma> Apple, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, et al. are all firmly in the "Definitely Bad, possibly Big Bad" column
[00:27:51] <Lucifer_arma> Because for anything/everything they've ever done for open source software, they have always completely missed the point of natural rights inherent to being a user and done whatever the fuck they wanted
[00:28:21] <Lucifer_arma> I wasn't impressed with the iPhone, iPad, or iPod when they were the only devices on the market of their kind
[00:28:59] <Lucifer_arma> and Google creating Android to counter that move was a Good Thing.  But then they loaded it up with all sorts of crap, essentially pulling an Apple, and have recently announced they want to abandon Android (?!)
[00:29:41] <Lucifer_arma> Gah.  It's easier to just stick with Canonical, that way I don't have to worry.  They've stayed in the "Solidly Good, let them date my daughter" category since their inception
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[15:38:22] <Z-Man> Well, yeah. Worst thing you can blame them for is constantly cooking up their own solutions, binding developer effort, and then failing. What's the fail list again? Unity and Mir, Mobile Ubuntu, Upstart.
[15:39:08] <Z-Man> Now they have Snap. I tried snap packets a few times, always total failures.
[15:39:59] <Z-Man> Launchpad gives me 'try again later' errors on every third page view.
[15:40:44] <Z-Man> What I'm saying is, they're good, but sadly incompetent :( Or at least overreaching.
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[16:06:06] <Z-Man> With Google (esp. YouTube), Facebook and Twitter, I'm not bothered by whatever they do to software. I'm worried about what they do to society.
[16:08:09] <Z-Man> Thanks to them, now you can make one inapropriate joke you think only to your friends, and when you come home, you find an angry mob of a hundred waiting for you because it got shared and there is no practical limit to neither the total nor peak rage any stupid remark can generate.
[16:09:22] <Z-Man> And peoples' main sources of information are fed by algorithms optimizing 'engagement', which is just an euphemism for 'rage'.
[16:10:33] <Z-Man> I'm not on Facebook, but I still see it on Youtube. The effort I had to go through to teach that bugger that I don't want to see any more Jordan Peterson videos....
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Log from 2019-04-09:
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Log from 2019-04-10:
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[12:53:22] <Z-Man> You knew you'd see me screaming BLAAAACK HOOOOoooOOOOOooooOOOLE the next time you looked, didn't you?
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Log from 2019-04-11:
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[03:29:11] <Lucifer_arma> Z-Man: pics, or it didn't happen :)
[03:29:28] <Lucifer_arma> (yes, although I wasn't consciously aware of that knowledge until I looked here again)
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[17:10:58] <Lucifer_arma> I'm sorry Beresheet crashed, but I'm fucking excited that they made it as far as they did.  Crashing on the surface of the moon is awesome for a private company in a tiny country.  :)
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Log from 2019-04-12:
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Log from 2019-04-13:
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[22:56:25] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-sty+ct+ap-fork] r1096 Removed se_GetLocalPlayerNotBot and made se_GetLocalPlayer c...

Log from 2019-04-14:
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[14:16:11] <Armanelgtron> http://www.armagetronad.org/screenshots.php wow those standard graphics are really out of date, heh
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Log from 2019-04-15:
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[15:08:22] <Lucifer_arma> What is a mechanic license?
[15:11:01] <Lucifer_arma> holy crap, some states require a license to be a mechanic?
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[23:36:44] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-sty+ct+ap-fork] r1097 Added local console output for disconnect message. Idea by N...

Log from 2019-04-16:
[00:09:17] <luke-jr> Lucifer_arma: on ongoing issue for me here in Florida, is that I can't buy the chemical needed to clean my toilets without a plumber license
[00:11:39] <luke-jr> (after being told by a plumber that he'd do it if I paid him, but it'd be stupid to pay him just to dump chemicals in)
[01:17:22] <Lucifer_arma> luke-jr: that's actually a bit reasonable, considering that plumbers actually have to know stuff about chemicals :)
[01:17:46] <Lucifer_arma> I just had no idea there's such a thing as a mechanic license in other states, because in texas, you don't need a license to work as a mechanic
[01:17:57] <Lucifer_arma> you need all sorts of licenses and permits to own a shop, and run a business
[01:18:19] <Lucifer_arma> this is like a food handler's permit, only for mechanics, where you have to take some state test just to be able to fix cars for money
[01:18:40] <Lucifer_arma> which isn't all that unreasonable either, I just didn't know the concept existed
[01:18:59] <Lucifer_arma> the lady who told me she had a mechanic license was clearly lying, though, because she didn't know jack shit about how cars worked
[01:20:06] <Lucifer_arma> while they were all hemming and hawing over the alternator, I just grabbed a few wrenches and pulled it.  It was right there on top, and there was absolutely no need to pay someone $100 for a tow just to pay someone else $400 to replace the alternator
[01:20:20] <Lucifer_arma> not when I'm standing right there and got nothing else to do right then :)
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[01:37:12] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-sty+ct+ap-fork] r1098 Don't plan on doing server stuff, but thought I'd fix a bug....
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[17:11:05] <ljrbot> New news from bzr: [0.2.9-sty+ct+ap-fork] r1099 Looked over it again, I like ct's method of handling this is...
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Log from 2019-04-17:
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Log from 2019-04-18:
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[18:08:47] <Lucifer_arma> https://www.statesman.com/news/20190418/mixed-use-neighborhood-ranked-best-place-to-live-in-austin
[18:08:55] <Lucifer_arma> wow.  I am just astounded by this report.
[18:09:47] <Lucifer_arma> Easily 80% of the area marked out on that map is occupied by the state mental hospital, medical offices, a shopping center (with a Texas Whole Foods-like store as the anchor), and a couple of large, empty fields
[18:10:07] <Lucifer_arma> how in the hell could an Austin reporter look at that image and conclude that it makes any sense to rank that area as the best place to live?
[18:10:40] <Lucifer_arma> the only way I can see that particular area being carved out like that and ranked is if an AI did it, because when you put context to what's in it, it doesn't make any sense
[18:10:56] <Lucifer_arma> (I drive my scooter through that area several times a day when I'm working, so I'm quite familiar with it)
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Log from 2019-04-19:
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Log from 2019-04-20:
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Log from 2019-04-22:
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Log from 2019-04-23:
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[14:48:43] <Lucifer_arma> I'm glad we're getting so much spam on the forums.  I was starting to worry that not even spammers wanted to post there.
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Log from 2019-04-27:
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[15:58:54] <Armanelgtron> you know, it might be a good idea to not have a limit on the chars in a name in tab because there's servers which dont count color chars (+ap) or maybe even allow more chars
[15:59:13] <Armanelgtron> I should say the scoreboard, not just "tab"
[15:59:30] <Armanelgtron> but I also mean tab completion
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Log from 2019-04-28:
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[15:23:44] <Lucifer_arma> Armanelgtron: how would you format the scoreboard that doesn't limit the chars in the name column?
[15:32:06] <Lucifer_arma> well, according to my spreadsheet, I'm making nearly $15/hour this month, but my total hours are still pretty low
[15:32:27] <Lucifer_arma> 42 hours for the month, heh
[15:32:39] <Lucifer_arma> doesn't help that my scooter had a week of forced downtime because of a broken switch
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