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[2024-02-07 01:19:34] <Lucifer_arma> random thought.  In warfare, there's often the question of why do defenders have an inherent advantage.  I don't have an answer to that question, but I think I can say that we've proven the defender always has the advantage
[2024-02-07 01:19:34] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| random thought.  In warfare, there's often the question of why do defenders have an inherent advantage.  I don't have an answer to that question, but I think I can say that we've proven the defender always has the advantage
[2024-02-07 01:20:15] <Lucifer_arma> In Fortress, the defender is just putting up a wall.  The field is even for everyone.  The only thing the defender has is time.  Time to setup.  Without that time, the fortress falls pretty quickly
[2024-02-07 01:20:15] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| In Fortress, the defender is just putting up a wall.  The field is even for everyone.  The only thing the defender has is time.  Time to setup.  Without that time, the fortress falls pretty quickly
[2024-02-07 01:20:28] <Lucifer_arma> but with a little bit of time, the defense quickly becomes nigh unassailable
[2024-02-07 01:20:28] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but with a little bit of time, the defense quickly becomes nigh unassailable
[2024-02-07 01:21:12] <Lucifer_arma> so while I can't answer the "why" of the question, I think I can answer definitively that the defense always has an advantage, and in warfare, you get to use terrain, motivation, all sorts of things to magnify that advantage
[2024-02-07 01:21:13] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| so while I can't answer the "why" of the question, I think I can answer definitively that the defense always has an advantage, and in warfare, you get to use terrain, motivation, all sorts of things to magnify that advantage
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[2024-02-07 01:55:13] -!- Topic for #armagetron is "Armagetron Advanced | http://www.armagetronad.org/ | Welcome to IRC"
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[2024-02-07 03:25:59] <Lucifer_arma> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dxmD18jc9k  <-- watch it quick, there's a copyright claim against it
[2024-02-07 03:25:59] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dxmD18jc9k  <-- watch it quick, there's a copyright claim against it
[2024-02-07 03:28:02] <Lucifer_arma> also, holy crap, Swampy?   Really?
[2024-02-07 03:28:03] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| also, holy crap, Swampy?   Really?
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[2024-02-07 09:12:46] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| The advantage is environmental. It's why we have the term "fighting on home turf". If you know the environment, you can quantify risk. You can fall back on accessible support. You have a retreat ready-made, where the enemy must construct or obtain a retreat of their own. You also have the majority of your effective defenses already in a position to be used, whereas the enemy must <clipped message>
[2024-02-07 09:12:47] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| The advantage is environmental. It's why we have the term "fighting on home turf". If you know the environment, you can quantify risk. You can fall back on accessible support. You have a retreat ready-made, where the enemy must construct or obtain a retreat of their own. You also have the majority of your effective defenses already in a position to be used, whereas the enemy must <clipped message>
[2024-02-07 09:12:47] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent|  transport their defense and offense to you. They are vulnerable at all stages of their offensive, including travel to the offensive, whereas you are in relative safety until the enemy has the ability to reach you. 
[2024-02-07 09:12:47] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent|  transport their defense and offense to you. They are vulnerable at all stages of their offensive, including travel to the offensive, whereas you are in relative safety until the enemy has the ability to reach you. 
[2024-02-07 09:12:48] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| It's actually extremely observable right now. The Ukrainian military is able to easily rotate their troops in and out of positions on the front line, enabling familial visits and medical treatment as well as basic necessity. Russia is unable to do this effectively, because they are required to travel significant distances just to reach the front line. During that entire journey t <clipped message>
[2024-02-07 09:12:49] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| It's actually extremely observable right now. The Ukrainian military is able to easily rotate their troops in and out of positions on the front line, enabling familial visits and medical treatment as well as basic necessity. Russia is unable to do this effectively, because they are required to travel significant distances just to reach the front line. During that entire journey t <clipped message>
[2024-02-07 09:12:49] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| hey are vulnerable to artillery, rocket fire, or UAV munitions - as has been well demonstrated thus far.
[2024-02-07 09:12:50] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| hey are vulnerable to artillery, rocket fire, or UAV munitions - as has been well demonstrated thus far.
[2024-02-07 09:12:51] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| They also know where all the local resources are, which means they can use predictive analysis to determine where some amount of materiel will be. Keeping those areas under higher observation therefore permits them to bleed the Russians at a substantial rate. 
[2024-02-07 09:12:51] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| They also know where all the local resources are, which means they can use predictive analysis to determine where some amount of materiel will be. Keeping those areas under higher observation therefore permits them to bleed the Russians at a substantial rate. 
[2024-02-07 09:12:52] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| Of course, the training and operating management of Russia's ground forces has played a big part in anchoring Ukraine, but that is only a small part of the equation. Ukraine is also playing defense, and in no small part - they have destroyed munitions transports, vehicles moving to the front line, buildings occupied by Russian forces, all at a staggering frequency. A significany  <clipped message>
[2024-02-07 09:12:53] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| Of course, the training and operating management of Russia's ground forces has played a big part in anchoring Ukraine, but that is only a small part of the equation. Ukraine is also playing defense, and in no small part - they have destroyed munitions transports, vehicles moving to the front line, buildings occupied by Russian forces, all at a staggering frequency. A significany  <clipped message>
[2024-02-07 09:12:53] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| number of Russia's armed vehicles, for example, have never made it to the front lines at all - purely because Ukraine is aware of precisely how they must get to their position. Such is the advantage of fighting on home soil.
[2024-02-07 09:12:54] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| number of Russia's armed vehicles, for example, have never made it to the front lines at all - purely because Ukraine is aware of precisely how they must get to their position. Such is the advantage of fighting on home soil.
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[2024-02-07 16:40:44] <armagetron-bridge> 10discord:ℜ𝔢𝔱𝔯𝔬:Player51| guys, could you quickly recall how to login after ADMIN_PASS was set? asking for @dreiecksmann  😉
[2024-02-07 16:40:44] <armagetronbridge> 10discord:ℜ𝔢𝔱𝔯𝔬:Player51| guys, could you quickly recall how to login after ADMIN_PASS was set? asking for @dreiecksmann  😉
[2024-02-07 17:01:35] <armagetron-bridge> 15discord:Nélg| didn't know ADMIN_PASS still worked
[2024-02-07 17:01:35] <armagetronbridge> 15discord:Nélg| didn't know ADMIN_PASS still worked
[2024-02-07 17:02:05] <armagetron-bridge> 15discord:Nélg| try doing `/login passwordgoeshere`, replacing `passwordgoeshere` with the password given in `ADMIN_PASS`
[2024-02-07 17:02:05] <armagetronbridge> 15discord:Nélg| try doing `/login passwordgoeshere`, replacing `passwordgoeshere` with the password given in `ADMIN_PASS`
[2024-02-07 17:06:46] <armagetronbridge> 10discord:ℜ𝔢𝔱𝔯𝔬:Player51| yeah, he tried and it didn't work. now I find this post (https://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtopic.php?p=250183#p250183) saying that armathentication needs to be disabled for that and it is enabled by default. the server is docker based but (s)he will setup local accounts as a better solution. thanks for replying, Nelg. ❤️
[2024-02-07 17:06:46] <armagetron-bridge> 10discord:ℜ𝔢𝔱𝔯𝔬:Player51| yeah, he tried and it didn't work. now I find this post (https://forums3.armagetronad.net/viewtopic.php?p=250183#p250183) saying that armathentication needs to be disabled for that and it is enabled by default. the server is docker based but (s)he will setup local accounts as a better solution. thanks for replying, Nelg. ❤️
[2024-02-07 19:55:47] <armagetronbridge> 04discord:Cookie Cat| You can't make this shit up 😂 https://www.notebookcheck.net/3-million-smart-toothbrushes-cause-millions-in-damage-due-to-DDoS-attack.800810.0.html
[2024-02-07 19:55:47] <armagetron-bridge> 04discord:Cookie Cat| You can't make this shit up 😂 https://www.notebookcheck.net/3-million-smart-toothbrushes-cause-millions-in-damage-due-to-DDoS-attack.800810.0.html
[2024-02-07 19:58:27] <armagetronbridge> 08discord:delinquent| this is why you don't IoT
[2024-02-07 19:58:28] <armagetron-bridge> 08discord:delinquent| this is why you don't IoT
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[2024-02-07 21:22:10] <armagetronbridge> 04discord:Cookie Cat| Just picturing a hacker sitting back like watch this guys, my army of toothbrushes is about to take down this company *maniacal laughter*
[2024-02-07 21:22:10] <armagetron-bridge> 04discord:Cookie Cat| Just picturing a hacker sitting back like watch this guys, my army of toothbrushes is about to take down this company *maniacal laughter*
[2024-02-07 22:56:54] <Lucifer_arma> well, that's all true, but what I was trying to get at is that in Fortress, we basically prove that defense is inherently the advantageous position to be in, because there is no terrain advantage
[2024-02-07 22:56:55] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| well, that's all true, but what I was trying to get at is that in Fortress, we basically prove that defense is inherently the advantageous position to be in, because there is no terrain advantage
[2024-02-07 22:57:04] <Lucifer_arma> there is only the circle you have to protect.
[2024-02-07 22:57:04] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| there is only the circle you have to protect.
[2024-02-07 22:57:26] <Lucifer_arma> the weapons you have to defend are the same the attackers have, and they'll come at you 2-3 at a time (if they're smart)
[2024-02-07 22:57:26] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| the weapons you have to defend are the same the attackers have, and they'll come at you 2-3 at a time (if they're smart)
[2024-02-07 22:58:06] <Lucifer_arma> now, you could argue that armagetron is an inherently defensive game, since the only weapon you really have is speed, and the reason that's a weapon is because of the wall you're making behind you
[2024-02-07 22:58:06] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| now, you could argue that armagetron is an inherently defensive game, since the only weapon you really have is speed, and the reason that's a weapon is because of the wall you're making behind you
[2024-02-07 22:58:58] <Lucifer_arma> but I think that even if you gave both sides guns, the defense will still have the advantage.  Their initial setup might be different to accommodate shooting at the attackers as they come in, but the advantage will still be there
[2024-02-07 22:58:58] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but I think that even if you gave both sides guns, the defense will still have the advantage.  Their initial setup might be different to accommodate shooting at the attackers as they come in, but the advantage will still be there
[2024-02-07 23:00:04] <Lucifer_arma> in the time it takes for the attackers to get from one side of the field to the other, the front line defense can setup enough to delay the attackers enough for the actual fortress defender to get setup
[2024-02-07 23:00:05] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| in the time it takes for the attackers to get from one side of the field to the other, the front line defense can setup enough to delay the attackers enough for the actual fortress defender to get setup
[2024-02-07 23:01:01] <Lucifer_arma> but we've all seen a good defender by him/herself successfully defend the fortress against the entire other team numerous times
[2024-02-07 23:01:01] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but we've all seen a good defender by him/herself successfully defend the fortress against the entire other team numerous times
[2024-02-07 23:02:02] <Lucifer_arma> I'll be if we created a fortress game where there's only one fortress, and the team that defends it is limited to three people, where it balances at a 2:1 rate until the defending team is full, it would be fun and challenging for all
[2024-02-07 23:02:02] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I'll be if we created a fortress game where there's only one fortress, and the team that defends it is limited to three people, where it balances at a 2:1 rate until the defending team is full, it would be fun and challenging for all
[2024-02-07 23:02:20] <Lucifer_arma> then we can snarkily name them Team Russia and Team Ukraine :)
[2024-02-07 23:02:20] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| then we can snarkily name them Team Russia and Team Ukraine :)
[2024-02-07 23:17:29] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:sine.wav| I disagree. Defense in Fortress is strong because of several arbitrary decisions when it comes to settings. You can change enough of those settings to make defending disadvantageous without fundamentally changing the game. It's been discussed over and over again and the only reason is hasn't changed is because we collectively decided it's more fun this way.
[2024-02-07 23:17:29] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:sine.wav| I disagree. Defense in Fortress is strong because of several arbitrary decisions when it comes to settings. You can change enough of those settings to make defending disadvantageous without fundamentally changing the game. It's been discussed over and over again and the only reason is hasn't changed is because we collectively decided it's more fun this way.
[2024-02-07 23:19:04] <Lucifer_arma> I'd be interested in seeing those settings.  I suppose cycle_wall_accel being high could make it difficult to maintain the defensive wall
[2024-02-07 23:19:05] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I'd be interested in seeing those settings.  I suppose cycle_wall_accel being high could make it difficult to maintain the defensive wall
[2024-02-07 23:20:01] <Lucifer_arma> but I've noticed that in chess, if you play black defensively for the first part of the game, your chances of winning go up a lot
[2024-02-07 23:20:01] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but I've noticed that in chess, if you play black defensively for the first part of the game, your chances of winning go up a lot
[2024-02-07 23:20:56] <Lucifer_arma> but chess is also heavily weighted towards whoever takes the first back row piece, and since white always goes first, it has the advantage
[2024-02-07 23:20:56] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but chess is also heavily weighted towards whoever takes the first back row piece, and since white always goes first, it has the advantage
[2024-02-07 23:21:55] <Lucifer_arma> but even in last man standing, a good camper can be pretty hard to beat
[2024-02-07 23:21:56] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but even in last man standing, a good camper can be pretty hard to beat
[2024-02-07 23:22:30] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:sine.wav| We discussed changing hole size, reducing rubber, reducing wall length, and adding slightly negative zone shrink so eventually you can't fully surround the zone. All those put much more pressure on defense.
[2024-02-07 23:22:31] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:sine.wav| We discussed changing hole size, reducing rubber, reducing wall length, and adding slightly negative zone shrink so eventually you can't fully surround the zone. All those put much more pressure on defense.
[2024-02-07 23:23:34] <Lucifer_arma> that reminds me of my apocalypse server, where I set hole size so big that whenever anyone crashed, it knocked out 98% of the walls on the grid
[2024-02-07 23:23:35] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| that reminds me of my apocalypse server, where I set hole size so big that whenever anyone crashed, it knocked out 98% of the walls on the grid
[2024-02-07 23:24:19] <Lucifer_arma> but wouldn't reduced rubber give the defense an advantage?  If it's hard to do that initial grind, then the defense basically has all day to setup
[2024-02-07 23:24:20] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but wouldn't reduced rubber give the defense an advantage?  If it's hard to do that initial grind, then the defense basically has all day to setup
[2024-02-07 23:25:00] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| > but I think that even if you gave both sides guns, the defense will still have the advantage
[2024-02-07 23:25:00] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| > but I think that even if you gave both sides guns, the defense will still have the advantage
[2024-02-07 23:25:00] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| heh, that might be why counter strike and other games like it have multiple places to attack
[2024-02-07 23:25:01] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| heh, that might be why counter strike and other games like it have multiple places to attack
[2024-02-07 23:25:26] <Lucifer_arma> but as you reduce wall length, you simply increase the number of defenders you keep in the fortress, and that in turn makes it even harder to spin down the fortress
[2024-02-07 23:25:26] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but as you reduce wall length, you simply increase the number of defenders you keep in the fortress, and that in turn makes it even harder to spin down the fortress
[2024-02-07 23:25:34] <Lucifer_arma> one attacker won't be able to take it anymore
[2024-02-07 23:25:34] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| one attacker won't be able to take it anymore
[2024-02-07 23:26:15] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:sine.wav| The initial grind is overrated. Modern Fort is less about being tight and more about being smart about your flanks.
[2024-02-07 23:26:15] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:sine.wav| The initial grind is overrated. Modern Fort is less about being tight and more about being smart about your flanks.
[2024-02-07 23:26:23] <Lucifer_arma> anything that changes the size of the zone could be defined as either changing the terrain during the game, or changing the goal.  In the comparison to actual war, it would be like if ukraine's borders were automatically expanding as they were fighting
[2024-02-07 23:26:23] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| anything that changes the size of the zone could be defined as either changing the terrain during the game, or changing the goal.  In the comparison to actual war, it would be like if ukraine's borders were automatically expanding as they were fighting
[2024-02-07 23:27:42] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| as for rubber, if you get it low enough to prevent adjusts/stabs for the defender you can still zoom in from the outside but not close the door as defender, and to avoid that a defense needs to leave less overlap which is harder to perform well with and definitely will make defenses weaker
[2024-02-07 23:27:42] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| as for rubber, if you get it low enough to prevent adjusts/stabs for the defender you can still zoom in from the outside but not close the door as defender, and to avoid that a defense needs to leave less overlap which is harder to perform well with and definitely will make defenses weaker
[2024-02-07 23:28:44] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| set rubber to 2 and speedy attacks will get much easier 😄
[2024-02-07 23:28:45] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| set rubber to 2 and speedy attacks will get much easier 😄
[2024-02-07 23:28:48] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:sine.wav| Yeah, less rubber reduces the ability for a defender to counterattack
[2024-02-07 23:28:48] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:sine.wav| Yeah, less rubber reduces the ability for a defender to counterattack
[2024-02-07 23:31:13] <Lucifer_arma> ah, but less rubber also makes it more difficult for the attackers to grind to gain the speed to make those attacks.  I'll assume you guys tried it and I'm wrong, though.
[2024-02-07 23:31:13] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| ah, but less rubber also makes it more difficult for the attackers to grind to gain the speed to make those attacks.  I'll assume you guys tried it and I'm wrong, though.
[2024-02-07 23:31:45] <Lucifer_arma> I know back in the day we tried lowering rubber and the game just became impossible to play
[2024-02-07 23:31:45] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I know back in the day we tried lowering rubber and the game just became impossible to play
[2024-02-07 23:32:37] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| somewhat, attackers can either do reverse triples / outside corner grinds to get some speed, it's definitely harder though
[2024-02-07 23:32:37] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| somewhat, attackers can either do reverse triples / outside corner grinds to get some speed, it's definitely harder though
[2024-02-07 23:34:47] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| the largest advantage a defender has in common play right now though is the ability to have a bit of trail overlap and stab/adjust against their own wall, all while not having to shrink too fast
[2024-02-07 23:34:47] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| the largest advantage a defender has in common play right now though is the ability to have a bit of trail overlap and stab/adjust against their own wall, all while not having to shrink too fast
[2024-02-07 23:35:56] <Lucifer_arma> you guys should try cycle_width to eliminate the grind completely and see what happens :)
[2024-02-07 23:35:56] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| you guys should try cycle_width to eliminate the grind completely and see what happens :)
[2024-02-07 23:36:05] <armagetron-bridge> 06discord:sine.wav| ha
[2024-02-07 23:36:06] <armagetronbridge> 06discord:sine.wav| ha
[2024-02-07 23:36:11] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| fireworks \o/
[2024-02-07 23:36:11] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| fireworks \o/
[2024-02-07 23:36:53] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| i am a total tunnel rat and would forget every time and die very very often ^^
[2024-02-07 23:36:54] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| i am a total tunnel rat and would forget every time and die very very often ^^
[2024-02-07 23:36:55] <Lucifer_arma> I remember it being fun, but it also went against all my instincts to worry about how wide my cycle was
[2024-02-07 23:36:55] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I remember it being fun, but it also went against all my instincts to worry about how wide my cycle was
[2024-02-07 23:37:25] <Lucifer_arma> yep, that's what happened.  I just couldn't avoid trying to penetrate the fortress by going down the trails left behind by the grind
[2024-02-07 23:37:25] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| yep, that's what happened.  I just couldn't avoid trying to penetrate the fortress by going down the trails left behind by the grind
[2024-02-07 23:38:33] <Lucifer_arma> but that is a solution to being to play high rubber without having it be high rubber
[2024-02-07 23:38:34] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but that is a solution to being to play high rubber without having it be high rubber
[2024-02-07 23:41:46] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| hmm i just had the idea of making cycle_width_rubber_min and _max negative, and it actually works as expected 😄
[2024-02-07 23:41:46] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| hmm i just had the idea of making cycle_width_rubber_min and _max negative, and it actually works as expected 😄
[2024-02-07 23:42:35] <Lucifer_arma> how were you expecting it to work?
[2024-02-07 23:42:35] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| how were you expecting it to work?
[2024-02-07 23:42:51] <Lucifer_arma> (I'm not remember how negative rubber worked)
[2024-02-07 23:42:51] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| (I'm not remember how negative rubber worked)
[2024-02-07 23:44:01] <Lucifer_arma> I also apparently have forgotten how to word
[2024-02-07 23:44:01] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I also apparently have forgotten how to word
[2024-02-07 23:44:17] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| cycle_width seems to work by using up rubber and that setting controls how fast
[2024-02-07 23:44:18] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| cycle_width seems to work by using up rubber and that setting controls how fast
[2024-02-07 23:44:28] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| 1 is "like sitting in front of a wall"
[2024-02-07 23:44:28] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| 1 is "like sitting in front of a wall"
[2024-02-07 23:44:48] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, that's how cycle_width works.  It's fun to get into the tunnel and be like "Yay!  I made it!" and then get partway into it and die
[2024-02-07 23:44:48] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| yeah, that's how cycle_width works.  It's fun to get into the tunnel and be like "Yay!  I made it!" and then get partway into it and die
[2024-02-07 23:44:50] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| so negative values do actually make it regenerate faster 😄
[2024-02-07 23:44:50] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| so negative values do actually make it regenerate faster 😄
[2024-02-07 23:45:24] <Lucifer_arma> ah, so your deep grind helps you, then
[2024-02-07 23:45:24] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| ah, so your deep grind helps you, then
[2024-02-07 23:45:31] <Lucifer_arma> I'd like to see that on a server, then
[2024-02-07 23:45:31] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I'd like to see that on a server, then
[2024-02-07 23:46:19] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| i wonder if i could make something with that, though my experience says with otherwise normal settings people can just hug a wall and go back and forth on it
[2024-02-07 23:46:19] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| i wonder if i could make something with that, though my experience says with otherwise normal settings people can just hug a wall and go back and forth on it
[2024-02-07 23:46:30] <Lucifer_arma> I also still want to see the walls stretch around the cycle whenever cycle_width is positive
[2024-02-07 23:46:30] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| I also still want to see the walls stretch around the cycle whenever cycle_width is positive
[2024-02-07 23:47:33] <Lucifer_arma> you know, like a snake eating a rat
[2024-02-07 23:47:33] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| you know, like a snake eating a rat
[2024-02-07 23:48:46] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| sounds like some good old shader magic, though i don't have any idea how those work in SDL
[2024-02-07 23:48:46] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| sounds like some good old shader magic, though i don't have any idea how those work in SDL
[2024-02-07 23:50:21] <Lucifer_arma> they don't.  You use opengl/opengles/vulkan to load the shader code onto the video card, where it runs
[2024-02-07 23:50:21] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| they don't.  You use opengl/opengles/vulkan to load the shader code onto the video card, where it runs
[2024-02-07 23:50:45] <Lucifer_arma> SDL just gives you the opengl context.
[2024-02-07 23:50:45] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| SDL just gives you the opengl context.
[2024-02-07 23:51:58] <Lucifer_arma> if you did it as a shader, it seems like you'd put the cycle wall graphic as a texture on the cycle itself and simply not render the walls there
[2024-02-07 23:51:58] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| if you did it as a shader, it seems like you'd put the cycle wall graphic as a texture on the cycle itself and simply not render the walls there
[2024-02-07 23:53:07] <Lucifer_arma> seems like it would be easier to physically warp the walls.  All you'd have to do is calculate the angle of lean for the wall at several points along the length of the cycle
[2024-02-07 23:53:07] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| seems like it would be easier to physically warp the walls.  All you'd have to do is calculate the angle of lean for the wall at several points along the length of the cycle
[2024-02-07 23:53:48] <Lucifer_arma> the wall "models" are generated on the fly
[2024-02-07 23:53:48] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| the wall "models" are generated on the fly
[2024-02-07 23:55:59] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| both could work, either give the cycle shader the info if a wall is near and do some effect there, or the wall shader the info where cycles are and bend them
[2024-02-07 23:55:59] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| both could work, either give the cycle shader the info if a wall is near and do some effect there, or the wall shader the info where cycles are and bend them
[2024-02-07 23:56:20] <Lucifer_arma> but to make the wall actually wrap the cycle, you'd have to calculate vertical points too and not move the top points of the wall very much, if at all
[2024-02-07 23:56:20] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| but to make the wall actually wrap the cycle, you'd have to calculate vertical points too and not move the top points of the wall very much, if at all
[2024-02-07 23:56:48] <Lucifer_arma> can shaders change mesh vertices?  Last time I was looking at shaders, you couldn't
[2024-02-07 23:56:48] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| can shaders change mesh vertices?  Last time I was looking at shaders, you couldn't
[2024-02-07 23:57:21] <Lucifer_arma> because a shader won't be able to accomodate warping several walls in a layer, I don't think.
[2024-02-07 23:57:22] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| because a shader won't be able to accomodate warping several walls in a layer, I don't think.
[2024-02-07 23:57:57] <Lucifer_arma> speaking of shaders, one thing I found that's really cool in the Dolphin wii emulator.  They programmed a shader that runs on the video card and emulates the wii's video card
[2024-02-07 23:57:57] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| speaking of shaders, one thing I found that's really cool in the Dolphin wii emulator.  They programmed a shader that runs on the video card and emulates the wii's video card
[2024-02-07 23:58:34] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| at work i've done some shaders with unity3d and while they can't touch the actual positions, they can bend things (move them while they render on the gpu? hard to explain heh)
[2024-02-07 23:58:34] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| at work i've done some shaders with unity3d and while they can't touch the actual positions, they can bend things (move them while they render on the gpu? hard to explain heh)
[2024-02-07 23:59:15] <Lucifer_arma> are they actual cuda code shaders or does unity3d provide their own shader language?
[2024-02-07 23:59:15] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| are they actual cuda code shaders or does unity3d provide their own shader language?
[2024-02-07 23:59:35] <Lucifer_arma> or opengl, I guess opengl/gles/vulkan provides a shader language
[2024-02-07 23:59:35] <armagetronbridge> 10irc:Lucifer_arma| or opengl, I guess opengl/gles/vulkan provides a shader language
[2024-02-07 23:59:37] <armagetron-bridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| HLSL or GLSL work with it as far as i've seen
[2024-02-07 23:59:37] <armagetronbridge> 03discord:ninjapotato1080| HLSL or GLSL work with it as far as i've seen
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